Are Muslims against terrorists?
61Taj Mahal Hotel
After the recent terrorist attacks in Mumbai like most of us even I was shocked, angered and saddened. But then I kept asking myself when I grew up I had a close friend she was a muslim and she never subscribed to this philosophy of hatred for fellow human beings. Then what makes some of these so called "Muslims" do such acts and why their are no protests against them from the moderate/peaceful Muslims.
I did a search with certain keywords and found tons of information which I never knew existed before. Their are a few sects of Islam called wahabism(or related Salafi) which inspires lots of known terrorist leaders world over i.e., Osama Bin Laden, Ayman Al-Zawahiri, Abu Musab Al-Zarqavi and so on.
These few handfuls of "Muslims" can't be the spokesperson for the entire religion of Islam preached in the Holy Koran. But these few handfuls of misguided "Muslim" are bringing such a bad name to Islam that today every Muslim is looked upon with suspicion. If most of the Indians in the aftermath of this tragedy look at our fellow Muslim brothers with suspicion then the terrorists have won since this could be the exact result that they wanted i.e., spread hatred/fear between the major communities.
But still some people may say that their are some "Muslims" here in our country who support these foreigners. I partly agree since in every society their will be a few disgruntled elements and it is a challenge to the governments to deal with them. But what about the vast majority who are innocent and have nothing to do with these terrorist activities. Ok I guess still not many would be convinced that our peaceful Muslim brothers are innocent and don't condemn this violent terrorist acts.
Here is news for those who refuse to believe that their are Muslims and organizations which are whispering in the background against this violence(I have included some relevant links for those who want to check further). We just have to keep our ears/hearts open to listen to even their pain and suffering.
As promised here is a piece of information those nine terrorist who were gunned by security forces were denied burial in the Muslim cemetry by the local Mumbai Muslim leaders as their terrorist acts were deemed to bring "shame" to the 25 crore Muslims in India.
We will find what we look for and if we look for reasons to hate we will find many but this is not the point of this article. Even if we find one reason to love someone that should take precedence over finding many reasons to hate.
References
www.freemuslims.org/
www.articlecity.com/articles/politics_and_government/article_191.shtml
www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/mumbaiterrorstrike/Election_Story.aspx?ID=NEWEN20080074888&type=News
Do you believe that majority of muslims are against terrorism?
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FP- We can only practice whatever we believe in( or "want to believe in" some cases). Glad you liked that comment. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
Hi kid, I believe that there are bad Muslims, and good Muslims, and for that matter, bad Christians and good Christians, bad Wickens and good Wickens, and for all I know, bad Martians and good Martians. Mostly, the bad have to hang a hat on the excuse for there evilness, so they're not really Muslims, or Christians, or Wickens, or Martians, they are just scrubby, vile little jerks.
TOF - Hear hear the words of wisdom from a half foot mouse.....LOL
I liked that "vile little jerks" and hope I don't ever be that....hehe
Actually I'm a two yard mouse (in my work boots)
Knowing a little of your religion, and your caste, I'm a little sad about you're possibly arranged nuptials, but who's to say that they are better or worse than the blind an lustful blunderings of we others. At least you are assured of marrying a similar class, if not necessarily a similar mental level
TOF- I saw that comment about 6 ft and 185 pounds earlier...hehe
Btw did I tell you about my "arranged nuptials" or you were spending too much time reading my comments across multiple hubs..LOL
Yes
TOF- I guess you spent time reading my comments since Iam trying to recollect our earlier conversations. I am flattered by all this attention but you still will be my favorite mouse (besides Jerry the mouse from Tom & Jerry)..LOL
Oh Hell, damned by small praise. Regrettably my most useful, if not favourite mouse, hangs of my computer.
Be careful my favorite mouse since TOM is waiting for such an opportunity to grab a hanging mouse.
We don't want an extinct species like a Jackalope...LOL
A rather brilliant, and now dead British comedian once said "Itchy dingle dangle, dingle dangle do. One a penny, two a penny, sold to Fu Man Chu"
Spike Milligan was a profound Irishman!
I just thought that I'd through that in for the sake of conversation.
"Itchy dingle dangle, dingle dangle do. One a penny, two a penny, sold to Fu Man Chu"
What does that mean? If you can spare me the time & effort searching on the net.
Damned if I know. Do you want me to be profound and erudite as well?
TOF- Glad to meet someone who isn't profound like me. Intellectual "Misery" does like company...LOL
I was moving the discourse away from an area that seemed to cause you conflict and discomfort.
Gee, and I can't even spell "throw'
So you are profound after all and deceptive about it. Don't worry nothing that you inflict can cause me any conflict (I do like to rhyme in case you haven't found that about me yet)...hehe
If you can't spell throw then that raises my eye brow.
But then I don't worry as long as it doesn't cause a row...LOL
Hi CW
I saw this hub, and was glad that it was you who had written it, knowing your connections to India. As TOF says very accurately (with the tenuous assistance of dear old Spike!) these people who perpetrate these unspeakable acts are in no way representative of the vast majority of Muslims. They're just brain-washed, deluded, and terminally misguided for the most part, with the odd mean and evil streak thrown in for good measure. Sure there are things going on in the world which they have every right to be angry about. That's no different to the rest of us. The point is that these highly orchestrated terrorist hits provoke hatred against people who are actually ordinary and decent. Thanks for speaking out about this CW.
Amanda- I like that description about TOF "tenuous assistance of dear old Spike!" and couldn't agree more. He sure is one helluva of a mouse.
After seeing so much vitriol being thrown at them I felt sad and put myself in my friend's place (a Muslim girl I went to school with) how she would feel about it. Then I realized I am a Hindu and I tend to think based on my identity but what if I wasn't then would I think differently. Anyway glad that you find it nice to see alternate perspective. We all need to be open and nice to everyone. Treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty (Gosh!! It's even the law)
Here I go - following Amanda again! But she does visit all the best hubs!! :) So thanks Amanda.
I agree with you CW - however, with each progressive attack - and I mean all over the world, the Muslims I think tend to feel marginalised and worried as a group. This is not a healthy trend. Worry begets fear...begets frustration...begets anger....and it goes on. That is the worrying part - that youngsters who feel that people are looking at them suspiciously get drawn into these groups with their own agenda of hate and destruction.
After the early 90s bomb attacks in Bombay, close friends of ours had to move because their kids were subjected to all kinds of taunts - and they are half Muslim, half British! That is the tragedy.
TOF - I can see you're working your mischievous magic here too :D
Shalini- TOF is such a cute mouse and one just can't help liking its company. Thanks for indirectly saying that my hub is one of the best(It means a lot coming out from a creative genius like you...I love that lollaland hub).
I know it is not a tendency that I feel is suitable to raise future generations (I wouldn't want my kids to ever hate/fear another human being just because they differ from others in religion, culture, food, language and so on). It is so sad when in schools such a mental abuse goes unchecked. As adults we need to know when to stop someone from going down this line. So sorry to hear that family felt insecure when in reality they have as much right to stay in our country as anyone else.
The same I feel about anybody who wants to work in anyplace in the country they have the right (I know I am digressing by mentioning MNS themes here.) A person can take to violence due to revenge, poverty and political disgruntlement. Each of these needs separate handling. I am not a genius to figure out how it can be done but it must be done. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
I know many Muslim friends, none of them are any thing like this, they contribute for the government, management and occupy some of the top positions. But even they are disgusted. I saw Wasim Akram's article, when he said we should have a special match between India and Pakistan and play in Mumbai to show that we don't support terrorism at all. I also heard that a Muslim Council in India refused to bury the militants, because they said no Muslims will do such an evil act. These incidents happen but we can't club everyone as a terrorist, it just helps the terrorists not the innocent.
I find in all religon they are bad peoples,those create troubles for others. Have a look at my hub too
Unfortunantly, the squeakiest wheel gets the grease as my father used to say. The ones you hear about in the news become the stereotype. Doesn't mean that it is right, just how the media and such deal with it. You can never assume that ALL people of a religion or political party are all the same. I've had friends who were Muslim and they were horrified at what was being done in their religions name. I knew others of that same faith that were cheering it on.
Great article!!!!!
I don't study what they believe. When I study, I study to grow closer to Jesus Christ. I do that because I feel I am never as close as I could be to Him, and studying something else would not be productive of my time as growing as a Christian. So, I have a question since a lot of you seem to know a lot about them. I have heard that they believe if they die in some type of religious war or act in the name of Allah, that they will recieve X amount of virgins when they die. Is this true?
ASU- It seems to be an interpretation and not generally accepted interpretation by the mainstream Muslims. I am copy pasting and including the link "mainstream Muslims regard this belief about 72 virgins in the same way that mainstream Christians regard the belief that after death they will be issued with wings and a harp, and walk on clouds"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri
Rgraf- You and your dad are right. One rotten apple spoils the whole basket is what springs to my mind. I know it is so easy to generalize and complete the gaps in our understanding with our own beliefs without making the necessary effort to research and see things from different perspective.
Lgali- It all depends on our perspective if we want to look at bad we will find bad in everything and everyone. We need to understand each other before prejudging anyone.
Cgull- You are already seeing positives by identifying some individuals like Wasim Akram (Pakistani Cricketer) who wants to promote peace and understanding. We need more voices of reason, love and kindness rather an eye for an eye approach in these times of crisis.
Ok, I just typed a big paragraph and it went away for some reason.
CW, thanks for answering me. I guess the heart of my question is that if they feel that committing a 'religious' act in the name of Allah would assure them the virgins in paradise. So, they would look at killing (like 9/11) would be a good thing to do and they'd be rewarded for it. As a Christian, I don't believe I will get a halo, harp, or wings or that I'll walk on clouds. I'm sure some people think of Heaven in that sense, but the Christians I go to church with and the others I know around here don't see Heaven like that. I'll check out that link. Thanks.
ASU- Before you click on the post comment just do a control c (for copying the comment) and control v(for pasting) just in case something goes wrong while submitting then we lose all the effort.Actually there is a certain minor Islamic sect (Wahabi) to which most of the majority Muslims don't subscribe to and it is they who tend to promote such interpretation to enlist new recruits to support for terrorist activities (the general mainstream Muslims consider such fringe sects as promoting hate groups). Just as you mentioned that the majority of mainstream Christians don't subscribe to that wings and all vision.
The point is that their will always be crazy and dangerous individuals in various societies and they have nothing to do with the mainstream followers of that particular religion/creed.
Wahabism is Saudi Arabia's dominant religion. It inspires more than just a small handful of radicals in my opinion. I do believe that the majority of Muslims don't agree with its methods just as the majority of Christians don't follow the bible in a literal sense. That being said it is a serious problem and must be confronted by all peoples regardless of where they are from or what religion they follow. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saud
DK5- You said it that "the majority of Muslims don't agree with its methods just as the majority of Christians don't follow the bible in a literal sense". And yes we need to tackle it sooner than later as we can't afford to lose any more innocent lives anywhere in the world. I don't know how to do it and where to start doing it. I guess few of the vocal voices from moderate Muslims to clear this apprehension would help.
Btw have you been to any of these places and if you do have any suggestions to tackle this problem than I would be more than welcome to listen to you.
Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
CW- Thanks for the copying tip! I appreciate it!
ASU- You are welcome. I have been there and done that...hehe.
Country Woman, I have many friends who are Maronite Christians living in Lebanon and here in the United States. They have been fighting for their very existence for thousands of years and have managed to survive up until now although albeit in much smaller numbers. Iran and Syria have strengthened the terrorist group Hezbollah in their country to a point now where it is just a matter of time, if things aren’t changed, before they will be able to accomplish what they have set out to do which is completely control Lebanon and destroy Israel.
As far as solutions, this is a tough problem that we have had limited success on but one success that gets little or no mention is the expulsion of Syria from Lebanon brought on by the strong response by America and the Bush administration in a post 911 world. Although Syrian agents still are actively involved in destabilizing Lebanese interests, Syria was forced from the long occupation that plagued the peaceful peoples of Lebanon. Syria’s terror campaign led to the emigration of a large number of Maronite Christians to Europe, United States and Australia. The Lebanese forces with the leadership of a truly great man, Samir Geagea, have been fighting terrorism in Lebanon long before most people knew what it was or how brutal it could be.
Another example of success against terrorism is in Libya. America’s willingness to not only confront terrorists but the Nations who harbor them helped to persuade the leadership of Libya to give up its nuclear ambitions and renounce terrorism and cooperate with the international community toward ending terrorism within its borders.
9-11 was not the first and Mumbai will not be the last. Continued and consistent cooperation and assistance in fighting these terrorists with countries like Pakistan and India not only by the United States but by all civilized nations is the only way to limit their murderous rampages and aspirations. Their perverse form of Islam can’t be negotiated with. Civilization, democracy, is their enemy.
Despite the lack of media coverage, the terrorists are also being defeated in Iraq. The people of Iraq have seen first hand the terrorists’ brutal ways and have rejected and defeated them. This I believe is the key to what will eventually lead to the demise of terrorism. The terrorists’ radical ways of thinking are one thing but the actions they take in the name of a jihad are so brutal that people, regardless of faith, will ultimately be the ones to defeat them such as in the case in Iraq.
Unfortunately, I believe that the divisions in this country and the hatred toward George Bush have minimized the successes that I have mentioned and have hurt not only this country but the global war and effort on terrorism as well.
Ouch!
CW, I've had a quick shufti at a DK5 hub and he has some very forthright ideas on socialism and the American political scene. As I've said elsewhere of others, although I disagree strongly with his views I'll fight tooth and nail for his right to express them. However you also have a right to express your own point of view, as of course we all have. I hope that you don't let your hub get buried in the verbiage of others pushing there own barrow.
DK5, I'm sure that you agree. Countrywomen is obviously a sensitive young woman hurt by the attitude that people of her faith must be terrorists or worse just because they're Muslim. This hub is trying with charm and intelligence to right that particular wrong. Although I can't speak for her, nor should I, for myself I want to thank you for drawing my attention to the problems you wrote of. Perhaps you could give links so we can go to other hubs where we can learn more without detracting from CW's mission on this hub.
Regards, T.O.F.
DK5- That was an overview of the problem areas. As they say "identifying the problem is half the solution". I guess my question was how do we resolve these problems:
1) Some of the people who may take up arms is due to revenge motivation.
2) Some due to acute poverty due to adequate means of livelihood.
3) Some due to political disaffection.
and so on.
Democracy is a good idea of representation of people in most of the societies but it isn't the only solution everywhere. Hence the idea of upholding democracy and going to war for it is further complicating the problem.
Also out of the total population of Muslims only a very small percentage belong to the Wahab (or salaha) and even all those who belong to those sects don't follow all their radical methods.
Peace isn't an option but a necessity in present times. An eye for an eye will lead the whole world to go blind. Somewhere the vicious cycle has to be broken. Violence leads to further violence. Hatred begets hatred.
We have to trust people. And once people have decent employment opportunities they may not be inclined to be brain washed by "anti social elements". And also provide the basic amenities through the mandate of world renowned agencies like United Nations or Red Cross to take care of requirements like Food, Sanitation, Health and Education facilities. It will require massive efforts but the victory achieved by peaceful means over terrorism would be far more sweeter than by weapons only.
TOF- Thanks for understanding the underlying motivation of this hub. Yes, I do hope more people understand and respect fellow human beings without suspicion, fear or prejudice. I am in no way condoning the acts of terrorism but trying to understand the reasons and long term peaceful solutions if any for those reasons. One of the easiest ways to alien ourselves to others is by way type casting everyone as the same which isn't true and may come dangerously close to being a self fulfilling prophecy.
Thanks guys for stopping by and commenting.
CW, I love this hub. I also love An eye for an eye will lead the whole world to go blind. Brilliant!
Hey Gwendy- WOW!! Finally you made it here from the Greenland Party. I hope you haven't suffered indigestion due to over consumption of beans these past few days...hehe
Thanks for appreciating that line. Btw it takes a diamond to cut a diamond and brilliant person to recognize brilliance (Mutual admiration)....LOL
Metaphorically speaking, if you keep your nose to the grindstone, your shoulder to the wheel and your eye on the task ahead you'll be doubled up like a pretzel, look like Quasimodo and be unable to do a damned thing. Also, as you butter your bread, so must you lay on it. (Jimmy Edwards as Pa Glum, Take It From Here.)
Ain't metaphors fun?
TOF- My my I like your funny metaphors but what do I know. As they say: Her artistic sense was exquisitely refined, like someone who can tell butter from "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter."
I don't know what else to say since: Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever.
LOL
I am part Arab and even though my ancestors were Christian, some of them were probably also Muslims too. I look down upon the prejudice against Muslims as there are many kind hearted and peaceful Muslims I have known in every day life. My grandpa was Syrian-American and always told me to be proud of my Arab heritage and that it is not something to of which to be ashamed. Some people think all Arabs are bad people, and I really hatethat connotation. There are terrorists in every culture and one group of yoyos do not represent an entire group.
SweetiePie- You echo my thoughts absolutely. We need more people with your keen insight and background. I was watching the Elections (one elderly woman said to McCain that Obama is a Arab since his middle name is a Muslim name Hussein). Many people interchange it as if all the Muslims are Arabs or All arabs are Muslims. I guess you can write a hub about this(I read that Lebanon has close to half of its population as Marionite Christians).
Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
I have thought about writing a hub on this topic. My response was going to be more about how American Arabs can are people you just do not know. Ralph Nader is an Arab, and how many people know that? So are the musicians such as Tiffany and Paula Abdul. Jerry Seinfeld is half Syrian and his mom was a Syrian Jew. My dad was fluent in Arabic up until the time he moved out of his parents' house because he used to run over to my great-grandma's house to get treats whenever he was in trouble with my grandpa. He said he forgot most of it, but he was pretty bilingual when he was young. My grandpa is still bilingual in Arabic and English and he was born in the United States and served in the Navy during World War II. How little people know about Arabs is surely amusing :). I am glad you are intelligent enough to see through all the propaganda out there and to write a hub of this intelligence.
By the way, all the wars we have fought against terrorism have bred more terrorists than existed five years ago, especially in the Iraq conflict. People act as if war is needed and holy, but I love the John Lennon song Imagine if there were no wars and nothing to fight for. It is not too idealistic to completely assert most wars are unnecessary and unneeded in the modern world. Europeans finally learned this lesson after two World Wars that ravaged their continent. What will it take for others to learn? There is nothing wrong with being a pacifist and working towards a more peaceful world, this is much more humane.
SP- WOW!! That's whole lot of famous people from Arab background. Yes you shoud write a hub about it. By the way besides peace do we really have a choice. Violence leads to more violence. Every person who dies "inspires" a new generation to take up arms and this will go on perpetually.
Glad you reminded me about John Lennon: I love this song and its so good (Although its not gonna happen but still hopes)...sobs..
The song and lyrics for the John Lennon fans http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEOkxRLzBf0
Here is the full lyrics for
Imagine
Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
There are steps towards it. Europeans have pretty much been at peace with each other since the end of WWII. They learned the lessons of hundreds of years of petty conflicts that escalated the the worst one of all: WWII. There is hope and it may not happen, but there are ways to prevent useless conflicts.
SP- I agree their are many ways(which I am not aware of) to prevent useless conflicts and we should learn from history (and not repeat those mistakes). If you have any practical ways to prevent violence than please share it with us.
I do not have the answers, I only am sharing what I have seen in history. However, I think electing leaders such as Bush is not the answer. Hopefully Americans will never elect someone with his mentality again.
SP- It's difficult to say if Americans will never elect someone like Bush. Actually when George Bush was first elected I was a teenager and had a very high regard for US and its politicians since Bill clinton had made such a positive impact in India. Then the news channel in India showed that after Clinton (who was touted as Rhodes scholar who studied in Yale/Oxford) we have the new President who also studied in (Yale and is a Harvard MBA). Only after the Iraq war the media started changing the out and out positive projection about US government in Indian media.
As I see it , Wars are about making money, or more truly, gaining (or maintaining) power. Money is only a small aspect of power. True power is above commerce.
All wars that I've come across, from the time of Ugg, the caveman have used religious (or racial, or colour, or sexual, but mostly "my god is better than your god") differences as the excuse for murder and mayhem. It's no different now. -
Take a few lunatics with a cause, no matter how foolish it may be in retrospect, give them money, publicise them, crank up the rest of the population into righteous indignation against their opinions. Throw in an atrocity or two, even if you have to orchestrate them yourself, and woopy duck, you've got a nice little righteous war, and you'll probably end up with control of lots of oil-wells, or territory, or whatever, which was the aim of the game in the first place.
I never had a high regard for Bush and many Democrats did not either. Actually many of us voted for Gore and there was some tampering with the votes in Florida. Bush was a mediocre student and could not match Clinton's scholastic record. I see the election of Bush as a backlash of right, right wing Christians who thought they could control the morality of the a president after the Monica Lewinski affair. How do we know what Bush does behind closed doors? We have no clues really. Sure he is a nice person, but a good president I never thought him to be.
TOF- Nice problem identification with your own inimitable mouse charm. I guess some of the Americans may not take too kindly to the last line "you'll probably end up with control of lots of oil-wells, or territory, or whatever, which was the aim of the game in the first place"
SP- We will know of someone only what is projected in the media and after the Clinton trip that was my personal perception. I guess I was too naive at that time. Regarding what bush does behind closed doors (a person who is "caught" is guilty and about the rest we can't comment). Yes their was a mention about Florida some irregularities happened in that election but anyway let bygones be bygones.
First of all, such brutal terrorists are not to be believed as human beings. They are proving that they are animals. So, they don't have any religion even if they claim. Those who support them for these activities will come under the same category, regardless of their religion, I think.
DD- Nobody condones these terrorist acts. They are bringing a bad name to the very religion they profess to believe in. It makes me more sad to know that we had actionable intelligence and not sufficient steps were taken to prevent this. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
CW- I get your point. As those terrorsits seem to have no value for their religious beliefs, they need not be considered that they belong to the whatever religion.
What an awesome discussion and a wonderful group of diversivied people.
It seems like the terrorist have their agenda cut out for themselves and that is to create conflict. If we have open communications all the while getting to know each other we thwart that agenda... upsetting what they strive to create: chaos, misunderstanding, hatred, isolation, "us and them" mentality, confusion ignorance. I believe the days are coming where we'll all take to the streets in protest... many faiths, races of all ages and we are seen as one. http://www.ringsurf.com/ring/AgainstTerrorism/
Kudos on your hub and thank you for your friendship.
Increase the Peace - You Amaze yOUR World
Hi beautiful. I suppose a lot of people from all sorts of places take umbrage at my assumptions, and I must admit to enjoying that thought.
(I spent half an hour after writing the above adding, and deleting. In the end I like it as it is.)
Bravo! I mention some of the direct results taken by my President George Bush in response to the terrorist attacks that changed My country and the world on 9-11 and it turns into a Hooray for Clinton, Bush is an idiot discussion. Same old -- stolen Elections, war for oil, Bush is a dummy. We even had someone quote what many believed to be a communist manifesto?? One Hubber even suggested I was off topic and that my discussion didn't even belong on a hub about terrorists.
Countrywomen - a hard subject, bravely tackled. This is an interesting clip on the subject. It shows Mumbai's Muslims speaking out against the terrorists and supporting the Muslim Council's insistence that the terrorists cannot be called Muslims and should not be buried in a Muslim cemetery. http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2008/12/200
Hi Coutnrywoman. I just chanced on this hub and am so glad I stopped to read it and all the wonderful comments as well. I heard about the actions of Mumbai's Muslims in refusing to bury the terrorists in Muslim cemetaries and thought " good for them" I have, in the past wondered why there wasn't more of an international outcry against this extremism from ordinary Muslim people--Mumbai's Muslims have made an important statement I think.
Thanks for writing about it here
Thanks for your comments on my hub. I read yours too just now and couldn't agree more. I think the time has come for a vast majority of moderate muslims to get rid of their slumber and protest more stridently against such dastardly acts of terror!
DingDong- Yes you said it. Thanks for understanding my view and commenting in this hub.
Diggersstory- You said it "It seems like the terrorist have their agenda cut out for themselves and that is to create conflict." This seems to be the motivation though not sure of it. Yes we all need to unite and raise our voice to give peace a chance. By the way that Ring surf is it another blog? I like that yOUR in "You Amaze yOUR World". You do have a way with words. Keep it up. Thanks for your appreciation and glad to be your friend.
TOF- Sometimes when someone is leading us the way then we are forced to assume isn't it. By the way I know mouse have a knowledege about escape route and are the best creatures to be followed in times of crisis...LOL
DK5- We all know that 911 was one of the most painful events not only in US history but to the world as a whole was a shock and then most of the world leaders felt US was justified about the retaliation against Taliban in Afghanistan (but do you justify Iraq?). In india their have been many terrorist attacks and not everyone gets the media attention like the present Mumbai crisis. Their have been tensions rising due to this and I sincerely hope we don't retaliate by violence. We in India have the highest respect for the post of President of United States of America.
Yes I agree we have had a quite a conversation and like it happens after a while in every conversation we must have digressed a bit from the main track of this hub. I hope you didn't feel bad about anything said here and I apologize for the same if you did feel bad.
DK5 does not seem worried about making others upset with their comments. He is entitled to his opinion, but my opinion is he is sort of putting everyone down for disagreeing with his worldview.
Paraglider- I have included an Indian news link about the same cemetery issue and that link you sent is redirecting to http://english.aljazeera.net/
But I am getting worried as the tensions seem to be rising in India after this terrorist attack. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
Robie- I guess some are just afraid to raise their voice but mostly I have heard whispers from innocent Muslims who hate these terrorists for bringing a bad name to the religion. Glad you could stop by and comment.
TheSophist- You are right "moderate muslims to get rid of their slumber and protest more stridently against such dastardly acts of terror" if lots of them come forward to protest than these terrorists supply line maybe cut off (those young recruits who join feeling they are doing a great favor for their cause will see the true real picture and not the propaganda shown to them). Thanks for your comments.
SweetiePie- As you say "he is sort of putting everyone down for disagreeing with his worldview" I don't know for sure and will leave it for him to clarify. But I felt when he used words like MY President and MY country he must have felt I as an outsider(Indian Citizen) was in anyway saying things about USA which was inappropriate and disrespectful to this great nation that is USA. I personally apologize to you if you felt bad about reading anything on this hub.
I did not vote for Bush and I am still an American and this is also my country. I say you are living here in America and are just as much American if you like being here and want ot say. No one has the right to determine who is and who is not an outsider. It sounded like to me DK5 is mad because people do not like Bush as he does, and some of his snarky comment was directed towards me. Also he implied that the song Imagine was the communist manifesto, when the song is simply good music with an ideal message.
Country Woman-Thank you for Taking the time to respond. By using the words my president I meant nothing by it I assure you. I believe he is a good man and has received a bad rap from the media and the left. Nothing more. I am still proud he is our President. Sorry if I offended you.
The whole world was misled on the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. All intelligence agencies had the same intelligence but George Bush was the one branded a Liar.
I do give a lot of thought about when is a war Justified? More than 70,000,000 people died during world war 2. Over 6 million Jews were Killed. Was war then Justifiable? Did the world wait to long? They knew but did nothing until it was to late.
Saddam Hussein had mass graves also. Over 500,000 that we know of possibly more. Had he remained in power, maybe one or two million would be in mass graves. His sons Uday and Quusay were known to be more brutal than he would have surely followed with the brutal killings and maybe we would be looking at 6 million innocent buried in mass graves. Knowing this, would removing him be more acceptable? He invaded Kuwait, started a war with Iran that cost Millions of lives. What was next? If this were Bill Clinton I believe the Media coverage would have been more favorable and the fact that everyone was misled by the intelligence at the time would have been taken into account. Just my opinion. Dk
The Regan administration gave Saddam the weapons needed to launch his attack against Iran. It was not until Saddam started to assert his authority and reject US hegemony in the region when we spoke out against him.
Well, I just have to weigh in here on this....DK-- everything you say about Sadaam Hussain is true but that does not give us (theUSA) the right to invade. Notice we are not invading Sudan or a number of other countries with equally horrible regimes in power. What we did was morally, ethically wrong and BTW everyone was NOT mislead by the intelligence at the time. The UN for one and the weapons inspectors-- not to mention the CIA all had their doubts and voiced them. Bush's coallition of the willing was a joke. All over the USA there were demonstrations, petitions, and candlelight vigils as ordinary citizens protested the invasion-- these were not wild eyed lefties, just ordinary Americans. IMHO Bush deserves all the blame he gets. Even if he was mislead by others, the buck stops with him.
and Countrywoman-- I hope you will not hesitate to voice opinions and even criticisms of America. Honest opinion is never disrespectful. DK is not disrespectful either--even though I don't agree with him :-)
I agree with you that Afghanistan was understandable after 9/11 and Iraq was just plain wrong. Now Mumai has had its own 9/11 and like you, I am worried about the potential for armed violence between India and Pakistan. I hope that India is wiser than America and that peace will prevail. They are both nuclear powers after all. Thanks again for the hub and the great comments
I'm sorry---was that in response to when is a war justifiable and Saddam and the mass murders?
?
Well DK5 is wrong about one point, he makes it sound as if we were against Saddam from the start, which is just not the case. I am a history major and studied this extensively, so let me give some background information. During the Iran-Iraq war the US gave aid to both sides, openly to Saddam Hussein, and more discretely to Iran as part of the Iran-Contra scandal. It was not until 1990 when Saddam invaded Kuwait that the US started to protest against his human rights violations, which government officials were well aware of all along. During the Cold War the US often supported many regimes that were anti-Communist, no matter how brutal the dictatorships. Also yes, DK5 you are being disrespectful to me.
Hi Robie, Interesting you should bring up Sudan. Do you think Barack will invade and do you think it would be justifiable. As far as the intelligence at the time,we can respectfully disagree on that as well as the way we see the United Nations I'm sure.
By the way, If we eventually find over 1,000,000 in mass graves in Iraq,will you then agree that removing Saddam was a good thing?
DK5- Thanks for that clarification. Great powers have greater responsibility than ordinary powers to respect international boundaries and have multilateral consensus on pressing world issues. Their is a law axiom that says "Justice must not only be done but also seen to be done" in the case of Iraq in Indian media invasion wasn't thought as a justifiable action and I can't speak of the world at large without further proof.
Once a Nation loses its credibility even justifiable actions are looked with suspicion and I always wish that USA be an example for other nations to emulate. Outside USA we have no allegiance to democrats or republicans and the media projects based on the actions of the leaders rather than the intentions. George Bush Sr. was hailed as the liberator of Kuwait in Indian Media and Bill Clinton for bringing promoting peace/economic prosperity.
I hope we can look forward to whatever little chance of peace we can get in this troubled times. I was talking to my office colleague the other day and realized that their is so much food, shelter and clothing problems even in USA to which the valuable resources could have been diverted. War doesn't solve any problems (may in fact create more problems).
SweetiePie- I used the word outsider because when I say anything to which the obvious answer is that those who support certain things are somehow "patriotic Americans" and feel for USA where as I may not have those same feelings. I got my Masters assistantship from a US Professor and got an excellent education here. Now working for a great American company and feel blessed by the opportunities that America has given me.
When I went to India one of my older uncles commented that "Americans are arrogant people and they do as they please without caring for anyone else" I vehemently denied their perception and told him that it is not true. Americans in general are very open, warm, kind and tolerant of people from other cultures/backgrounds.
Even I like that song Imagine and hence even added that youtube link if some one wants to listen to it. I didn't know till now that it had anything to do with socialism/ communism.
I once again apologize to you since on this hub I take accountability for all that you read and feel about.
I think Americans in general are very kind and open hearted. I can see how some people might get the perception some Americans are arrogant, but of course this is true of people from any culture.
Do not feel the need to apologize as you did nothing wrong. The person who spoke down to me would not even acknowledge it, so I am over it. However, I do not regret speaking my mind about what this person said to me as I always will stand up for myself.
Some people think Lennon was a Communist because of he said the Beatles were more popular than Jesus, and much of what he said was taken out of context. Actually the song Imagine is about the mindset of the 1960' and 70's and not necessarily about Socialism. It is more about seeking other alternatives to war. I actually wrote a hub about the spirit of the sixties you might want to check out sometime.
Robbie- Thanks for the vote of support for my opinion. But honestly I agree we can have discussions and also disagree as long as we do that agreeably. I will continue to air my opinion but just have to be a little bit more sensitive to how I word my thoughts.
I also hope we don't do anything that could result in disastrous consequences. Let us hope and pray for peaceful world. We have enough pressing issues like food, health, education, shelter and so on to focus our resources on instead of mindless Wars.
SweetiePie- An average Indian has never interacted with an average American. Their perception is based on the actions of American leaders like the recent Iraq invasion without a multilateral consensus has given rise to that "false perception" about majority Americans which is so untrue. People when they have gaps in their understanding fill those gaps with their own perception to complete the "whole picture" which isn't always the true picture.
Glad you got over it. I feel sad when I see so much pain and suffering in the world as it is and if I in anyway be the cause of it then that hurts me even more. I will check out that hub soon.
Hey, I did not get an e-mail alert when you published this hub. A technical problem I guess. Lucky I was checking out your pages searching for the one on that train journey. Found it ... "palace on wheels."
Shall sort it out with admin.
Anyways, this is an interesting hub. The comments are interesting too. Keep on hubbing, don't stop hubbing ... as the song goes !!!
As for terrorism, unfortunately the world is no longer a safe place as it used to be. :(
:) :) :)
Too many muslims firmly believe that they are the chosen ones, meant to rule the world. As per strict islam, the whole world has been allotted to them and non muslims are enchroachers and squatters.
Quicksand- I agree the world is becoming more instable by the day and more wars aren't doing anything to improve the situation (but rather creating even more problems). I hope peace is given a chance in our lifetime. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
Mr.Sharma- I can't comment about the "chosen ones" as every group believes in their own religious text and may feel that they are the ones. "strict islam" as propounded by Wahab(and salaha) sect is not widely accepted and practiced. We should never see our fellow innocent Muslim brothers with suspicion due to a few terrorists who aren't even considered as "Muslims" by many of them. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
Countrywomen - sorry about the broken link. Anyway, the commentary seems to have wandered from the original topic of whether or not most Muslims support terrorism, and has drifted into an American comfort zone of old arguments about Iraq. Pity :) Something to consider is that most Muslims live in countries/cultures where voicing strong opinions about anything is not the norm. The perceived reticence to condemn terrorism should therefore not be read as condoning it. In their hearts, most Muslims are disgusted by attrocities, as are most non-Muslims.
Paraglider- Yes I too feel it was diverted a bit but sometimes we need to see a picture from many angles to understand different perspectives. If you have the working link then I would be glad to check it out.
I couldn't have said it better "The perceived reticence to condemn terrorism should therefore not be read as condoning it. In their hearts, most Muslims are disgusted by atrocities, as are most non-Muslims." You have epitomized the purpose of this hub. Thanks for saying it so well in so few words.
I have several Muslims friends and none of them supports the terror activities in the name of religion. In their opinion those who indulge in such activities cannot be a real Muslim.
Anamika- I agree with you completely. None of these people who commit such terrorist activities should ever be considered as a "real Muslim". I am glad to see the stand taken by the Muslim Council to deny them even burial in Muslim cemetery since they weren't "Muslim"(although a dead body needs to be respected no matter who so ever it is). Now more than ever we must be careful not to raise the tempers and coexist peacefully. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
The conversation has gone well paraglider I believe, but the perception of it wandering off track can be just one viewpoint. Just made some stellar points. It is not about the American comfort zone of the Iraq issue, but as a historian we must look at the role the US played in politics of the middle east, which in part has to do with perceived notions on terrorism. I stand by the points I made here. Convo on hubs does not need to be rigid, and whereas one person may see it as meandering, the other may see it as cognizant points being made. All points have value in a discussion from all worldview points. I have a very well rounded world view myself if I must say so.
SweetiePie- I certainly feel you have a lot of in depth historical knowledge. Also have a very wide breadth from Palestine to US about so many issues about which I am not aware of. I always learn something new from your conversations (I never knew about what Lennon said and how it was perceived?).
I agree with you US has played/and is continuing to play its role whether (positively or negatively) in the world politics.
Thus I know I may come across as passionate in my last comment and totally respect paraglider, but I do not believe anyone was taking this conversation into "an American comfort zone". Just had to give my two cents there, and yes the US policies will continue to have both negative and positive impacts on world politics.
SweetiePie- I guess he meant those issues which are closest to the heart of most Americans. Anyway I will leave it up to him to clarify. But as you say US will continue to have it's impact world over. I always admire your passion in standing up for things you believe to be right. I guess you should consider politics as a career (You can be a voice for many people who need a vocal passionate person to represent them in political arena)
No worries, he does not have to agree with me :). The great thing about these discussions is we can all agree to disagree.
SweetiePie- Yes he is also a very knowledgeable and reasonable man. Friends don't have to agree on everything(It will be sort of boring to hear some one thinking exactly like us)...LOL
I know he is a very knowledgeable man, never said less than that. On this hub no one has really agreed with me :).
I agree with SweetiePie I agree with SweetiePie I agree with SweetiePie I agree with SweetiePie I agree with SweetiePie....hehe
Oh you are sweet. I just think maybe some of my comments are not popular :). I will keep saying how I feel, and I always respect that you are open to hearing it :).
SP- I am always open to knowledgeable & sensible people and you are one of them. I am glad to meet some one who knows so much and speaks it out so vehemently. I like your passion and quest for truth/getting it right. I tend to check myself some times if I don't know how to say what I want to say.
No problem at all with the ebb & flow of comments. I just wanted to say something about the core issue. The events are very recent, still current in fact, and CW has done well to start this conversation. (And of course we are all friends here).
Countrywomen,
You are very knowledgeable from what I have read in your hubs. Personally I just speak my mind because over the years and even on hubpages people sometimes say things I do not agree with, but they seem to speak freely so I speak freely too. Life is too short to worry about what someone will think about you for sharing your opinions. Do not worry about how you will be perceived, but maybe it is easy for me to say this because I just stopped worrying about that years ago :).
Paraglider- Yes you are right the Mumbai tragedy is very recent and their are war clouds looming over. I just hope peace prevails. I totally agree with you that we can have a free conversation as if sitting across a coffee table. One of the persons I argue the most is my dad (and I also love him the most)...hehe
SweetiePie- I am not really worried about how I will be perceived as that is something I am comfortable with (I mean whether somebody perceives me as an idiot or a genius nothing is really going to change from what I am really)
The thing I am concerned about is I may be hurting some one (Violence through words is the most dangerous form of hurt which can't be seen only felt). I keep quiet when not sure because unknowingly I may be hurting many people knowingly why should I do the same.
And thanks for the encouragement about me being knowledgeable. I have a brother and father who keep me connected with the happenings around(even if I am not keen sometimes)...LOL
Excellent Hub. You stimulated a lot of thoughtful comments and some less than thoughtful. Of course most Muslims don't condone terrorism. Like nearly everyone else they want security and the opportunity to live and prosper and educate their children. Unfortunately there are a number of fanatical leaders who call themselves Muslims and who support terrorism. There are fanatics in other religions as well, but few ask the question "Do Hindus condone terrorism?" although some do. Or do Christians support terrorism although some sects commit violence against abortion clinics in the name of Jesus.
Ralph- You are right the way media tends to merge those two words "Islamic Terrorists" does create a negative perception as a whole about Islam. Their are "fundamentalists" in every religion who bring a bad name to the majority of good people in that religion.
This hub was written aftermath of the recent Mumbai blasts and hence focussed on only Muslims but you are right that "terrorists" can be anyone anywhere who disturb peace and cause violence. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
What I can't figure out is why the "moderate" peaceful muslims dont stand against the few that are FULL or hatetred. Those that hate are then hated themselves and cause small minded people to put everyone in the same basket (so to speak). I keep wondering if the peaceful will every do anything, are they all scared?
Michael- If one lives in a Muslim neighborhood one has to be very careful of their surroundings. One of my friend used to stay in such a neighborhood (and she would be very careful when she approaches her house wearing a veil and otherwise in college she would be a bundle of energy).
It's like who wants to bell the cat? But still their are voices that we can hear may be not as loud as we would like to hear. Most of those who are poor and have no other go then they tend to be brain washed easily. Their are lots of issues to handle (social, economic and political). Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
I am going to submit your hub to mixx because I feel it is worthy of more search engine traffic. I may also twimble it :). One point that I did want to make is in Egypt people take a very strong stand against terrorism. The Egyptian economy is heavily dependent on tourism, and they would not want to see this industry fall to the wayside because of a few yahoos.
Sure go ahead. Thanks for the help.
Muslim who are peace loving and truly fear God would condemn such acts of violent. I believe they are against terrorist too and is just in a passive way. I have many friends who are Indonesian Muslim and they too think terrorist are giving their religion a bad name but they cant do anything about it. I think the Muslim world need a very strong respected religious leader to speak out for them and let the terrorist knows that their act of terror will not be tolerated by all God fearing Muslim.
Patski- The problem is who will be that leader who will openly take the heat. Today Shah Rukh Khan a very popular Indian Actor said “There is an Islam from Allah and — I am not being anti — very unfortunately, there is an Islam from the Mullahs. I appeal to all of them to please give the youngsters, the right reading of the Quran,”
Yeah u're right Countrywomen , their terrorist leader using Islam to mislead the young innocent , ignorance youngsters are really wicked and should be condemn by all. Killing itself is a sin no matter what religion you are from , i think each country should start to work on their community of youngsters and give them a wholesome healthy lifestyle like introducing more games and sports and sharing among each other. Counselling will be given if anyone have problems be it family , religion , friends etc and create an environment of holistic approach to sharing and not be mislead into joining bad company or outside elements who always tried to lure young people who are vulnerable into their terror group.
Believe me if the Pakistani government will to check into the background of those young terrorist , most of them probably are poor , uneducated and have low self esteem. The terrorist leader knowing their weakness brainwashed them into thinking fighting and killing people who are non Muslim are the right way. By doing that they feel powerful and strong , you can clearly see from the way they act and kill so many in Mumbai. Is sad how their life ended too by believing is an honor to die for their terror act. If they have been introduce to a caring compassionate community who taught them what is Humility , Integrity and Truth then their whole life outlook will change and their destiny will not end so young by their own ignorance.
Patski- You touched upon so many issues that really need to be addressed. I don't know how and where to start executing such ideas. I mean do we have local governments address it or NGO's or any other organizations address it or media awareness.
But I do agree with you totally and I couldn't have said it better"If they have been introduce to a caring compassionate community who taught them what is Humility , Integrity and Truth then their whole life outlook will change and their destiny will not end so young by their own ignorance."
I think that Patski has said an absolute. It's immaterial your religious upbringing, or whether you choose to follow your own thoughts; thinking and caring people are just that, no less, often more.
Poverty can build strength in the strong or aspiring. It regretfully more often engenders hate and bigotry in the manipulated (And some of them are strong and aspiring. Many are intelligent, many more are just desperate)
These people, the good, the bad, and the ugly are (I think) no more than cannon fodder for the real agenda of their manipulators: - to get more control (be it by money, territory, subjugation, or pick a number, it's dominance) Invariably they do harm to their brothers, close or distant. Almost as invariably it's in the name of religious variance, and always it sets the misled against the misled and makes someone powerful more so than they where, or tries to.
So have a shufti at the rude hubs of rockinjoe, mistyhorizon, B.T. et al. The sanity of their insanity is far more fun.
TOF- WOW!! You did mention that Good, the bad, and the Ugly one of my all time favorite movies of Clint Eastwood. I guess we need some one with that ability to resolve the world crisis...hehe. You have certainly identified a lot of areas that causes people to take to terrorism but hopefully in the near future we would have peace and prosperity.I don't know whether I will ever be able to shake off my shyness in discussing those things in the above mentioned hubs. But any way thanks for your invitation.
Well kid,
Resolving the cause of the world crisis is not a major problem. Most thinkers have come up with an answer which approximates the root of the crisis, although practised manipulators try to, and often succeed in, setting them at loggerheads over minor variances.
However naming the cause is not remedying the problem. This won't happen - Ever.
Those who have the power to fix it are those who profit most by not doing so until they've wrung every inch of advantage out the situation. Then the screws will come off briefly , as is now happening with fuel prices, to go on some other unreal bogeyman such as global warming, to terrorise the gullible and give an excuse to make the masses work more, for less.
Of course this is just my own 'umble view, free and gratis. Remember that most things are worth about what you pay for them, mostly a lot less!
Cheers,
T.O.F.
BTW, I didn't even think you should try letting it all hang out in those hubs, other than you already have, but a bit of course commonness helps us see that the real word ain't so bad after all.
TOF- WOW!! That's a lot of wisdom and observation "Those who have the power to fix it are those who profit most by not doing" So what do you think about Obama?
I like your observation "give an excuse to make the masses work more, for less" you should read Pam's hub:
http://hubpages.com/hub/I-Married-an-Auto-Worker-T
I agree real world isn't a bad place at all I have met so many kind and wonderful people who are more open that's all. Maybe I will grow out of it eventually. Thanks for boosting my morale and encouraging me to participate more. I had begun to like you but now I admire you too.
See the discussion is still going here. That is good you can keep up with it. I also like keeping up with discussion on hubs, but a few times last week I had to delete an odd comment, which was something I rarely have to do. Oh well, sometimes we get comment spam :).
Yes I got in my other hub about (It's OK not to be a christian) that somebody posing as me (unregistered) posted some abuses to myself. But in general people are nice and cordial. When you mean spam was it just junk. I hope the message you had to delete wasn't a personal attack or abuse.
Actually it was a personal attack and I had to delete it. Try not to delete anything, but this time I had to.
Was it from someone on the hub pages (because we can even send them a message although I don't initiate any such conversation). I hope you didn't feel bad about such things. I forgive people but its more difficult to forget such things.
Yes it is from someone here and they know who they are. They are polite to everyone else, but sort of rude to me. It is surprising too when I see how polite they are to other people. I just decided to delete the comment and not engage in conversation with that person since what they said was so off base anyway.
SP- My dad was a successful lawyer before he went on to become a Judge. He told me long time back if their is one lesson I can tell you from my life it is this "Be nice to people who agree with you and be nicer to people who disagree with you". I try to follow that lesson as far as possible.
Again it must be one off day for them or maybe they didn't mean it exactly like that (Do you remember somebody alluding me to be a "terrorist" for a while I ignored conversation with them but I finally got over it (giving him the benefit of doubt).
You are a good person to be very kind. I give you kudos for your attitude :).
Thanks sweetie pie for appreciating my attitude. I admire you for your easy writing style and on a variety of subjects with such great frequency we benefit by your hubs.
He is a human first.Blame the human not the religion. :)
Mohit- I agree a few deranged individuals shouldn't be held against the whole religion. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
Great hub, Country, and the question seems like a no-brainer to me. But, I guess it would be surprising to know how many of us "white folk" believe all Muslims are terrorists.
Common sense tells us that the terrorists, whatever their religion, are extremists and do not represent the whole. I cringe to think that there are people in other countries who believe all Americans are just like OUR religious extremists.
I'm shuttering...
CW- When I went to India last time I went to my mother's ancestral village. And one of my distant uncle commented how you are living with the "arrogant americans"? I had a tough time explaining that not all americans approve of all actions that the government takes but still some people in India feel just because US invaded Iraq without any provocation and multilateral consensus they feel "Americans do as they please without caring for world opinion" which is so not true since I have been here for the last 4 years I have met wonderful Americans who are kind, friendly and open minded. I guess people perceive based on what they see in the TV and then generalize as it is easy for them to do so. Thanks for commenting.
Fantastic hub.
You're absolutely right. People, everywhere, generalize by what they see in the media - good or bad. It takes a "thinker" to get past the popular perception and look a little deeper. Ironically, TV also helps us do that; documentaries, Travel Channel, educational channels, etc.. This blogsite also does a lot towards getting past stereotypes.
Theyrodean- I am glad you liked this hub. I too love your hubs esp your movie reviews are great. I will check out some more of your hubs shortly. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
CW- You are right. Very few people want to take the pain of doing more research and find it very convenient to form their own perceptions. I have met so many thinkers and have understood so many different view points on various hubs. I agree hub pages is a great place to interact and learn about so many things. I don't like the stereotypes either. Btw here is a hub by sweetiepie which addresses partly the stereotype behavior. http://hubpages.com/hub/Trolls-In-The-Forum-And-Ot
Stereotyping is an overused and mostly misused word. Truly it means picking your own perceived opinion of someone and shoving them into a slot to fit your opinion. Thus one can be "stereotyped" as Indian, Muslim, Mexican, Jew, Roman Catholic, Redneck, Blue-collar, Wife beater, Male chauvinist pig, Lesbian, or just about any other category that you can think of, every one of which has its own unspoken but immediately recognised denigration.
Stereotyping is usually bigotry, and as usually used by the bitter. This was once not so; but then , nor was Christmas commercial. I'm sure that none of us like being categorised, nor our motives being denigrated by others. I don't.
I could continue this ad infinitum, but to what avail? The crap we've all worn in the past rightly belongs there. Learn (if we're lucky), and move on.
Hi TOF and Countrywoman,
I used to have a friend from Belfast, and in the 1980s we took a trip around France, and I was shocked to overhear French people on two occassions suggest that as he was Irish, he might be a terrorist! Times have moved on, and I'm sure people don't think of Northern Irish people in that way now, so eventually things will improve for Muslims in time.
TOF- Stereotyping happens all the time. I realized it in school when a new person joins class if he/she is fair(in India that matters) and wears glasses with nicely combed hair/neat dress then the first perception is that person is studious and a good student. Even when I see a tall man in suit then I feel he must be a dynamic person (which was proved wrong once that is a different story).
Amanda- I hope so too and sooner the better. But on the sidelines racial stereotypes does get the most attention but their are many other types we sometimes sub consciously do that's why marketing/sales people take so much time to project their persona so that they fit the end user's perception. I have noticed stereotyping even in Ads on TV and I could go on. But we need to be able to discern what is healthy and what is unhealthy stereotypes.
Thanks TOF and Amanda for your visit.
"In Dublin's fair city, where the girls are so pretty..."
The folk of Dublin only differ from the folk of Belfast by a small degree of geography, and in truth I believe little else. Anything other is peripheral.
From what I've seen, the residents of both these fine places feel the same, other than on days of international rugby, when after we've kicked their tails in , those in the south go to the pub, - while those in the north just go to the pub.
TOF,
So true. The Irish folks I know certainly love a tipple and a little 'craic' at the pub!
TOF- Do you love Rugby a lot? I was forced to watch cricket/football by my bro and dad. Now I follow whenever my brother insists and I also enjoy it esp when India is winning.
Amanda- I heard that the Irish like alcohol so much that they put it even in the coffee. I got to be more careful ( or rather I will settle for English Tea and biscuits anyday)...LOL
CW, I know that I'll probably be hauled from my home and publicly flayed for this blasphemy (in NZ) but Rugby leaves me pretty cold. I'll watch it on TV if I have to. - no pain, but no way will I pay good money to go and see it live. Any game where a bunch of overgrown schoolboys spent half the time cuddling up to chums bums in scrums, the other half having a loosely controlled punch-up, and then go and all shower together- (who dropped the soap?) - seems a bit suspect to me. (Memo to self: Now sit back and watch the sparks fly!)
BTW no self respecting Irishman would waste good whisky in a cup of coffee, it's just another rotten rumour put up by that lot below Scotland. As the Scots say, the only decent way to have whisky, - is with more whisky.
Cheers, TOF.
TOF- Now I am seriously beginning to think the hitchhikers guide to galaxy could be true. A "mice" which is so intelligent surely needs to rank above a ordinary human like me....hehe.
Well I have had my share of such shocking episodes when the first time in University(here in US) I went for swimming I saw other girls in the shower (in birthday suit) I almost fainted. I love the way you write "chums bums in scrums". But seriously stay safe my friend from those "schoolboys".
Btw are you from an Irish descent by any chance? Yes it could be a rumor but it was told to me by my friend in London hence believed him about alcohol in coffee. I will verify it online again. Enjoy your scotch and keep entertaining us with your wit.
Irish coffee is definitely coffee with whisky CW, But just as the "English" tea that you drink isn't English, (the climate's wrong) but comes most likely from the Indian or Chinese regions, "Irish Coffee" shouldn't be blamed on the poor old Murphys, any more than a "Scotch Egg" on a confused Hebridean hen.
Some people maintain that I actually descended from a tree, recently, and should climb back up, but yes, I have Irish blood on my father's side. I share my surname with a very well known and totally incomprehensible Irish author (not Spike Milligan!) On my mother's it's more Scottish and Welsh. It seems the common bond other than being variously Celtic Is that my ancestors retreated to the tops of distant hills ahead of the advancing English hoards, from where they roll rocks at any who come too close and still wait for them to bugger off back home again. (I try to do my little bit in the name of ancestral loyalty.... Oh what the hell, that's Bull', I just like rolling rocks on Poms!)
TTFN, TOF.
Great hub CW. As a person from India I was wondering if you could critique this opinion-It's my opinion that if we tried to educate, cloth, feed, basically help people in countries that nurtures terrorism, then it would be hard for al quaeda to recruit them.
TOF- You do have a great sense of humor. I just couldn't help laughing at that "I actually descended from a tree, recently, and should climb back up" now I understand why you are monkeying around with jackalopes so much...LOL
Well my knowledge of alcohol is zero since I have never tasted it. But yes I do know a variety of ways to make different teas (along with nice snacks to accompany)..hehe. Spike Milligan sounds like "Gilligan's Island". It seems to be such a ideal place to stay with no "isms" just have fresh fruits, play music and laze around the beach the whole day with so many friendly people. Btw coming to "rolling rocks on Poms" we just won a historic test match against them. Btw can you explain what TTFN means?
WR- Those are great ideas to eventually remove them from joining terrorist groups. But it requires lots of dedication from many people to achieve the results. Is the Peace corps involved with these objectives? UN is trying but still it alone may not be able to achieve the desired results as quickly as we want. But in recent times some progress in the plight of woman in Afghanistan has been noticed. Another thing I have seen is that bad gets way too much publicity and the good things that are happening at the ground level is often ignored by the media. If more people see some results are possible then more will join to volunteer with their time, money and efforts to achieve those noble objectives you mentioned.
TTFN, from a wartime radio comedy called The ITMA Show by Tommy Hanley.
ITMA= It's That Man Again
TTFN= (Ta Ta For Now): the signing off statement of one of the cast (Mrs Tickle, the cleaning lady I think)
Hi TOF,
I love a riddle, and have to ask therefore, does your sir-name also get used as a female christian name? (The Iliad was a breeze compared to Ulessyes)
Yup Amanda, and Finnigan's dead.
PS. You don't qualify as a Pom, being an islander, and from another area of Celtism.
TOF- Thanks for those abbreviations. And I thought people from England were called as poms if I am not mistaken. I will have to read up on celtism although we have a sports team here in US called boston celtics. Ok then TTFN.
Amanda- I don't know the context of you guys discussion hence didn't respond earlier. Anyway did you get your answer. I am so ignorant I didn't even understand the question...hehe
Are Muslims against terrorists? - depends on what does Islam mean to them. Their religion doesn't support lending money and getting interest, but we know many muslims do that(at least in my knowledge in India). Similarly, as terrorism is not taught in any religion, they should openly show that they are against those terrorists.
Great hub with long discussion on comment section, remembers me SweetiePie again. Thumbs up! :)
I heard that Christ cast the moneylenders from the Temple, and eventually got nailed for his effrontery to the great God Mammon.
Two thousand years later nothing has changed. The God of the powerful is greed, no matter what religious hat they choose to wear. If you're the Johnny with the biggest gun, you're the crusader for the power of righteousness. The other blokes are vicious Zealots, Infidels, terrorists, or whatever. If by chance you decimate them whilst showing them the error of their ways it definitely serves them right for being so obstinate. That the righteous gain control of salt mines, olive groves, oil wells, or the power to express themselves openly and freely without dissent at the same time is of course completely coincidental.
Weblog- Some do voice their dissent but most may be afraid of the backlash from the fundamentalist quarters. Every society moulds their religious doctrine according to the times hence that interest free system can't be universally applicable. sweetiepie certainly supports a lot of people. Thanks for visiting this hub.
TOF- Yes the haves will always try to keep the have nots stay away from the wealth as long as possible. Even those who have are sometimes duped by others who possess even more greed and cunningness. Read this the rich and wealthy people including top banks have been duped by this man Bernard Madoff to the total tune of $50 Billion: www.marketwatch.com/news/story/hsbc-details-exposure-madoff/story.aspx?guid=53097328-4AC1-434C-AEE4-E4B6B979B08C&dist=SecMostMailed
Thanks CW.
About Amanda and my asides. If you Google "Finnigans Wake" (no ' ) all will be revealed.
Cheers, TOF
TOF- I will do that. Thanks for your great insights and witty conversation. You really are one adorable mouse...hehe
Hi beautiful lady, great to see a long discusion and comments. I will tell you my expereince. I am from India and from that state that is dominated by muslims. I was in class 8th when we were told just to pack your 1-2 bags . Why i said why i was being told that we have to leave our house. we were having a big house, domestic animals and land. Dear we have to leave all these things and were forced to leave our own state because we are hindu & that state was dominated by muslims. From that date i hate muslims. They are all directly or indirectly involved in terrorism. They love violence, ignorance and all those stuff that we all hate.........
Sandhya- I was so sad to see that your life's experience has made you hate muslims. I don't deny the pain that comes when we are personally affected. But if some muslim person loses a close family relative in a communal tragedy that person would also forever have a grouse against the other community. I understand their would be some bad elements in every faith but to blame all belonging to that faith bad isn't appropriate. I still pray and hope that you recover from the immense personal tragedy.
CW: My late 18 year old nephew, Omar had a last name that is Muslim. He was American born to a South American Mom (my sis) and an Arab father. After the 9/11 tragedy in NY, at one point he considered changing his name as he wanted to get into medicine and was wondering how prejudice would affect his career, especially since he was living in NY, but this nephew of mine was a wise young man; he wrote a beautiful essay for his High School term paper on why he decided to keep his name; he didn't want to contribute to fear by hiding his heritage, he wanted to help others and carry on his name proudly.
Granted there are cultural differences among different religions and countries, but the Muslims I have met, are in no way, in shape of form the villains that many people think they are. Most are embarrassed by the acts of terrorism of the nuts in their midst. And most don't know but, the Bin Ladens are pretty normal and extremely wealthy family, really. Its their cousin Obama who has brought a stigma to their name. They used to be clients in the Citigroup dept. I worked in, (its okay to say it, they are on the net anyway) and I still remember the transfers I used to do for them. At the time, they were just another wealthy group of clients who practically owned the financial sector of Manhattan, that is until the 9/11 happened..
Very good unbiased hub. Thank you for writing this, and many thumbs up!
Violet- WOW!! That is quite a lot of details. I too agree that their are many people who stereotype but that shouldn't make us hide our identity. Their are so many nice people among Muslims but all that is reported is about bombs, violence and terrorism about Muslims. I hope the media is more responsible in reporting the good side as much as the bad side gets reported. Btw their is a typo instead of Osama you mentioned Obama. Thanks for appreciating this hub and commenting here.
My goodness, yes, I just noticed my typo now. Oh, dear, I just hope that the folks that don't like our new president elect do not see this as some kind of confirmation that Obama is tied to terrorists. LOL!!!
Gave you another thumbs up. (saw your comments in a forum). hehe. ;)
Violet- Don't worry my hubs aren't that important that they will be noticed by many. But seriously people who don't like him will not like him no matter what we say so it really doesn't matter anyway. Oh yeah the forums it is a little too much and I am just not used to so much attention here on hub pages. Glad you came back to correct the statement about that obvious typo.
in this world their is no community or religion having only good guys.In our day to day life we know what is correct but still sometimes under some circumstances we do oposite to it.So I feel that best way to know any religion is to go through Holly Book of that religion.For muslism holly book is Holly Quran.
I grew up with Muslim friends and not even once I found them unruly. I'm talking about year 1986 and before. They used to be the best of people and in some cases, better than my Hindu friends but everything changed after 1986 in India. It's so sad. Movies like 'shoot at sight' give an honest portrayal of the difficulties met with by a common Muslim who has nothing to do with terrorism.
I left a reply for you in my hub. (how to inculcate....). Thx for visiting.
Abraham- I agree with you that their are black sheep everywhere. i am sure the Holy Quran hasn't failed us as much as some those people who profess to believe it may have failed the Quran.
Anjali- I don't know why 1986 you have highlighted. I haven't read about any particular incidents that year that must have caused this change. I agree with you that their are good people everywhere and if we are good to others then even they will be good to us. Thanks for stopping by.
To all peace lover
First World War and Second World War started because of someone brain washed their soldiers to sacrifice their life.
sgjerome: WW1, WW2, and most other wars were, are, and will be started for power. This is the control of others to advance your own purposes (be they comfort or megalomania.) Money is an artificial, but nevertheless it's the current manifestation of power, and petro-chemicals dictate the control and manipulation of this money, and thus, Power.
Develop this thought as you wish.
I agree that the fighters in any war are conditioned, (not necessarily brainwashed) to go and kill each other. The devout and the devoid feel they are doing right, and with clarity of purpose and the strength of righteous desire will fight with mind and muscle to destroy the vicious and evil enemy.
The devout and the righteous are on both sides, - They are soldiers, military leaders, journalists, clergy (of any faith), idiot politicians who's latent honesty scales their eyes, (Please note, I consider this last to encompass very few of our current representatives.) the average Joe in the street, you and me.
The people who win are the Puppeteers.
After WW2 Krupps received a token smack on their hand and resumed as before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp_Trial
Others appear to have also suffered less than their contemporaries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warburg_family
Although I should not presume, I can, and will assume. - Go Figure.
Hi CW, I hope you and your family are safe, well and happy. All the best,
TOF
Sgjerome- I am not sure if you are implying that "muslims" are brainwashed similarly as in First/Second World War. Anyway thanks for stopping by and commenting.
TOF- Where have you been? Not seeing you lately. Hope you had a good new year celebration. My family is safe and happy. Thanks for asking and wishing me the best. That was quite a lengthy statement about War causes. I will check out those links later. Thanks again for commenting. We all miss your company here. Have a good day.
I think that it takes courage for muslims to speak out for peace, especially when their lands are being occupied by the United States who is stealing their oil. I think that once we get out of Iraq the situation could improve.
Bgamall- I have a lot of respect for Mahatma Gandhi and he always says that it is the weak who raise the war cry. It takes a lot of courage to speak for peace even if everyone around you is war mongering. Those above lines aren't exactly Gandhi's words but they are his thoughts. The Iraq war is a complicated situation now and hopefully in the near future it will become stable. Peace is needed everywhere. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
Very well said countrywomen, It is indeed that its not the religions bt infact the people themselves are the ones who develop misanthropy for one reason or the other. I hope we all can be better human beings for the sole benefit of mankind!
gr8archer45- I second that thought. We all can certainly be better human beings. Thanks for stopping by.
The reason ordinary muslims dont condemn these terrorists is that they know that they are heavily paid mercenaries by Freemasons and Zionists. They are eager to degrade Islam by any means. For that they even buy muslims who are name sake muslims.
Now, please do not pin point terrorists as muslims, call them as terrorists just as you call Bush as terrorist. In the case of Bush you people do not propagate that Christianity is responsible or Freemasonry is responsible, you just call Bush as a Butcher nothing else but when a name sake muslim is caught in these kind of acts you start mispropagation of Islam
Yes, everything is in mystery. May I request you to see my hub “Osama bin Laden –Dead “will be seen shortly? A terror is a dreaded terrorist. All Muslims may not be saints but not terrorist. Attaching Muslims with terrorist a great harm is done to humanity. After all Islam is one of the sacred religions of the present World.
Voted up! Great job!
I'm a Muslim. I totally agree, totally! I've never supported terrorists neither I've met anybody here that does so. Think of 1.57 billion Muslims, Only like 0.001 percent support terrorism, but people stereotype us... Nice Hub!
Feline Prophet Level 5 Commenter 3 years ago
"Even if we find one reason to love someone that should take precedence over finding many reasons to hate." That one sentence says a lot countrywomen...if only more of us were able to practice it.