Do I need to defend Indians or Hindus?
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After having read about some people's opinion about Indians or Hindus in particular I decided it is high time that I write a hub. I have seen many times there is a mention about St.Thomas visit to India about 2000 years back. But there are historical accounts to point out that India(erstwhile kingdoms) did have a verifiable civilization even at that time and it would be over simplistic if some people think that only upon his arrival there was a drastic positive change. But never the less the prevailing monarchy in Kerala rightfully did accord him the respect and reverence due to a holy saint at that time. And even today there are a few Christians who trace there lineage to the earliest introduction to Christianity in Indian soil.
About 1600 years back when some of the Jews were not being treated well in Southern Europe (in and Rome)/Middle East then they were given asylum by the Chera emperor in Kerala and today they are known as Cochin Jews(It is a good hub about them) or as "Black" Jews.
About 1200 years back when the Zoroastrians(parsees) were being persecuted in Iran(previously Persia) then they were given asylum by the king of Gujarat and today the largest percentage of them live in India.
And then when lots of Central Asian and South Asian military expeditions came to India(some of them were Islamic) then even they were assimilated slowly into the Indian fabric and one of the greatest moghul kings Akbar even had a Hindu Queen and was tolerant of other faiths and propounded din e ilahi(Divine Faith) and was very influenced by the sufi saints who preached oneness particularly Moinuddin Chishti (to his dargah/tomb even many Hindus take the pilgrimage).
And about 60 years back when the world was just mouthing paper condolences about Tibet's invasion then it was India which gave asylum and there capital in exile in Dharamshala is still protecting the rich Buddhist heritage.
A few handful of "misguided" Hindus shouldn't make somebody think
that all Indians are similar in their views. To give you the other side of the story
and broader understanding on these issues let me tell you this since I
read even the
Indian news papers that in India these over zealous missionaries
sometimes propagate to the poor downtrodden people that the local temples
are places of devil/satan(Idol) worship and those who follow these
practices are mentioned as "Robbers&Thieves". Also the beliefs of
Karma and Reincarnation which hold a sway on the vast majority are
sometimes twisted to further incite and instigate some corrective
action. And when those poor down trodden people keep receiving similar
sound bytes over a period of time than those newly converted neophyte
followers to set a historical wrong get passionate to sometime take the matters
into their own hands. It results in ugly confrontations sometimes the
ages old local village temple having the idol would be damaged(which by
the way is worship through idols and not idol worship). The police and
other government authorities are usually at a loss to clarify whether
these clashes are between the downtrodden and the so called "upward"
classes or between Hindus and Christians or even both. Most of these
incidents have taken place in one particular state called Orissa (out of 28 states and 7 union territories in India).
And I do agree there have been some sad
tragic incidents like the murder of Graham Steins or Father Bernard
which has rightfully received widespread publicity. And at the same
time Swami Laxmanananda and four others including a woman sanyasis were
killed. But there will
be no "Outcry" by the majority western newspapers (with notable
exception of BBC) and also since it is politically not convenient to
support the majority community it sometimes even doesn't get similar
publicity as any real/ or perceived injustice done to a minority
community.
In North Eastern India last year a huge krishna
temple(unlike small local temples) was bombed and also here is a list
compiled consisting of the number of hindus who have been attacked which you won't
find being reported mostly in western media (if you scroll all the way
to the bottom you will also find the krishna temple attack).
We would find what we look for(I found the above link using the search criteria "attacks on hindus") to prove my point hence believing in "motivated" just one side of the story doesn't give the complete picture. Somehow the blood of a few hindus out of a billion plus Hindus seems less significant than the blood of Christians as far as reporting is concerned. I have nothing against people who want to preach the wonderful gospel of Jesus Christ but sometimes when I have to show my side as good do I have to paint others as "bad". And is getting "followers" more important than getting "disciples". I usually draw the distinction this way. When Gandhi wanted to inspire people he personally set a very high example by his high personal "discipline"(simple living and high thinking). But when some of these same organization leaders lead a lavish life style then it brings into question what the real motive could be? Do they see India as a huge "market" with lots of potential "followers". It brings me to this question whether there is any hidden agenda when Pope John Paul II said this in Indian subcontinent that a "great harvest of faith would be witnessed on the subcontinent in the third Christian millennium".
In recent times another Southern state of Karnataka which is governed by a
right winged party then some "nut cases" suddenly got the idea that
they need to defend the "Indian/Hindu" culture and started moral
policing the pubs and discotheques. Although I am personally
conservative but I find it frustrating when I am told to behave in a
certain way which isn't something aligned to my own internal
realization. To state my point I would say those adult "girls" who
drink or smoke or have pre marital affairs as being there right to
engage in it as they please. But at the same time I personally don't indulge in it and
also the society sometimes has a double standard. The same guy who has
had affairs or smokes/drinks but when he is contemplating for a wife
then he doesn't want her to be involved in any of these. At least we
have a forum online like this where we can air our views without being
subjugated to our "womanly" codes/duties.
When I was in India I saw a movie(can't remember the name of the movie which came with English subtitles
during sunday afternoon) about the same state where the right wing fundies
have started "moral policing" where a woman with the sanction of the
religious authority like the hindu "priest" initiates some women into
the deplorable practice of "Devadasi". It may have been spiritual
practice to begin with but unfortunately as is often the case
degenerated into nothing more than organized community prostitution
which thankfully isn't existing anymore (at least not to my knowledge).
Then there is the caste system where certain people are still sometimes
treated as "less". In my undergrad class I was mostly neutral when
there was a agitation against the reservation system. But once when I
was invited by my class mate to her house for a birthday party then
since my cousins had arrived we were planning to go for a movie and I
said NO. She took it very personally and then to assuage her feelings I
hesitantly said I will come to her house. There I found only 4 girls
her younger sister, one girl who is her neighbor and myself besides her
parents. We cut the cake and then her mother served the dishes. I
just found that out of the 3 items prepared none was a vegetarian item.
Although by that time(I was 19 years) I did taste meat (which I have eaten 4 times in my life
so far). But when I didn't touch the meat I was asked whether I have
never eaten meat and I told her I did eat twice before then immediately
they said "why not now or you don't like to eat at our place". I forced
myself to eat but that night I had a nightmare and for the next few
weeks had a lot of guilty conscience. It seems that somehow what my
ancestors have done to her and her family has to be carried on for
generations by people from my "community". I personally don't know how
long we have to carry on setting right the historical wrong.
My point about writing this hub is to say that there is always this other side of the coin and when India is perceived as being intolerant or "persecuting Christians or Muslims" then it does hurt somebody who has grown up with best friends who belong to these other faiths although I myself belong to the majority Hindu community. Here is a point to ponder over when I state that India must be one of the few countries in the world where 7 known religions (Hindus/Muslims/Christians/Sikhs/Jains/Buddhists/Parsees) holidays are celebrated as National Holidays.
Tolerance and mutual respect is the need of the hour now more than ever before. We seem to have the all religions in the world to divide each other but not enough to love each other.
There are many ills among Hindus too as I have mentioned in the earlier
paragraph. When somebody asks me about the purpose of religion I
mention that it should guide us to improve ourselves. And for that
matter even atheists who might have internalized moral principles are
also improving themselves. Each person is bound to take a journey that
suits him or her best. But our freedom to believe ends where the other
persons nose begins. Lots of times I have seen when ones beliefs are thrusted on others as "facts" then it creates uncomfortable situations. All this leads me to ask this question whether
religion is (mis)used by certain people to gain power? I tend to
sometimes receive flak from both sides(right wing Hindus/Christians)
but I still
say it since revisiting our own beliefs isn't a sign of weakness but on
the contrary liberating. Sometimes when there are gaps in our
understanding then if we fill those gaps conveniently with our own perceptions than
that could be incomplete "truth". If we already have a preconceived
belief and
then specifically seeking for "information" that is
subscribing/agreeing to
our beliefs would be a very unfortunate and limited usage of the
infinite capacity of the human mind. I will end this hub by one of my
all time favorite Shakespeare lines:
"What
a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how infinite in
faculties, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how
like an angel, in apprehension how like a god!"
Video of the Krishna Temple Deity at Manipur that was attacked
Is this hub biased towards Hindus?
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Sidd- I just arrived back this morning. I was going through the forums and found it disturbing to read about the perceptions of "persecution". You are right only when "hapless" message is conveyed they may get sufficient funding to carry out there activities. Btw I spent about 2 hours for this hub and most of it was based on my prior Indian history education. The words just kept flowing when I started writing and in fact I spent more time in finding pictures from wikipedia. I studied in KV/Central school where we had moral science classes about all religions. Anyway thanks for stopping by and commenting :-)
There's a broken link (you have an extra space in it) in your number of hindus who have been attacked ... so I took out the extra space and read the article ... I think the headline is a key: NEVER FORGET, NEVER FORGIVE
When I am sent reports of Christian persecution from organizations like "the voice of the martyers" we are urged not only to pray for our persecuted brothers, but also to pray for the persecuters.
I don't know about what it's like on the ground in these areas but the press reports I recieve emphasise forgiveness for enemies.
If I were to recieve a supposedly "Christian' newsletter urging me to "never forgive" I would unsubscribe immediately, nor would I give them much credance.
Still I don't doubt that these people were hurt, and my heart goes out to he Hindu victims of persecution as well. I pray comfort for their families.
P.S. I did make a point of saying "some parts' of India, I know it's a big place with a lot of people.
Are you saying this story is innacutate?
Wonderful Hub CW.In my Opinion Religion is the worst thing which has happened to us. We tend to forget that we are humanbeings and should follow the religion of humanity first and then any other religion. People tend to twist the religious doctrines to suit their own selfish requirements. You may be surprised to know that I am a Christian too who can trace back my origin to Brahmin ancestors.
Thank you for writing this much needed hub, CW. I totally agree that tolorance and mutual respect are the key to everything and yet as the world becomes smaller there seems to be less and less of it. Seems to me that all the religions of the world have their rigid angry crazies and that ignorant people are easily manipulated everywhere. Every religion has its saints and its sinners.
Thank you so much for writing about the rich history of India and of Hindu tolerance. It is something that needs more publicity here in the West. We Americans especially know so little about cultures other than our own. Good job CW and thumbs up.
Bdazzler- Thanks for pointing out about that space and I edited it accordingly. Yes we all need to forgive and move on(that was one of the first links just to prove that we will see what we want to see). I just wanted to give an alternative perspective about the widespread misconception that hindus are extremists or intolerant and so on. Your link is correct but most of the times the untold story of backlash is never revealed i.e., if somebody goes to Saudi Arabia and tells them that their religion is "bad" wouldn't it invoke a backlash? Across the globe right from parts of Africa to Fiji where Hindus are being targeted by Christians it doesn't get equal news bytes. The Christian Media is very powerful and I hope many people would try to see the other side too. I hope everywhere people realize that we all are human and it is more important to feed the hungry, educate the poor and treat the sick. There are many wonderful Christian schools and hospitals which are doing an excellent job both in India and around the world. I know you are a very good soul and your kindness shines through your writing and hence when you had that opinion than that certainly moved me to write. If it was a narrow minded person I wouldn't have bothered to even try as it would be pointless to expect someone who is predisposed to certain line of thinking will ever change. I know you didn't mean to say it the way it sounded but when others read that a person of your intelligence and understanding has this opinion it might make some others reinforce their opinion hence I wrote this hub. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
Anamika- I actually don't find fault with religion as much as to the application of the religion. I have met many wonderful Christians and have the highest respect for them. I actually see the "right wing" sometimes in guise of helping may have ulterior motives to seize power irrespective of whatever religion it maybe. I don't want to name those whether be it in India, USA or anywhere else. That is so cool that you have the best of both. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
fascinating hub, thank you!
My detailed experience with Sikhs and Hindus is in Afghanistan, where they are essentially one community. I don't think I do have negative perceptions - I'm sure there are Hindu idiots, just as there are idiots of every colour, creed, and nationality!
Robie- Yes you are so right. Although the world is coming closer due to internet but when it comes to beliefs and tolerance we still have a wide valley to bridge. And most of these "right wing" ideology tends to lay undue importance in regulating woman including on issues about pregnancy(I wonder why?) But at least we have internet where we women can come together to air our views even if there are fundies who would like us to stay at home and have babies. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
LondonGirl- WOW!! You seem to be getting in the thick of things in the forum world with Julia. Btw just when I submitted my comment this is the second time in row that somebody sneaked comment while I was replying to earlier comment...LOL
You are right the fundies are there everywhere and I hope we all keep our hearts/minds open to see the other side of a story. I was going through my emails earlier and saw that you published a hub about Afghanistan which I will be shortly reading. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
Welcome back, CW.
You see what happens when you leave us alone for a while! Your wise counsel and calm demeanour were sorely missed. I can understand what BDazzler was trying to say, that the word persecution is used too freely and inappropriately. Every religion and political ideology has a lunatic fringe, and the sooner that we send the fanatics to live on the Moon, the better.
I am reading about Indian religion but, in my usual contrary way, have started reading about the Sikhs first. Hinduism is next on the list, I promise! I read about Zoroastrianism and Jainism a few years back, so understand a little about the great diversity of beliefs in India :)
Ah, I understsand.
My point was that there is "Real" persecutiaon which certain lazy, comfortable American christians like to ignore while crying about being "peresected" because they aren't getting their way.
Clearly an American Chrisitan looking at Mother Teresa who was far more representative of Christ than some of the others who call themselves Christians, but are not, hasn't got a lot of room to complain.
I have an Indian friend (an engineer) who is Christian and never saw any persecution at all ... so I guess it really depends on who, what and where ... it was informative, well written hub and i'm glad i insprired you! :)
Sufi- You really make me feel like a family here. That is such a wonderful thing to say. I am sure you must have charmed many women when you know the right things to say at the right time ;) I am sure you know lot more than you or anyone can ever give you credit for. Btw whenever I read your comments or posts in forums I am left wondering about the sheer range of topics on which you have grasp and the nicest way you end up saying it. Btw I am just back from a certain "moon" and all I would say is that it isn't such a "bad" place to be in ;)
Bdazzler- You are so right I am one of the biggest fans of people like Mother Teresa who with there actions inspire people to be disciples of Christ rather then mere preaching. You are so right about who,what & where and if somebody has a very bad experience than that person maybe scarred for life. We all have try to understand that the upbringing, education & experiences of each one of us is unique and at the same we all are humans with the same need for love and kindness. Thanks a lot for stopping by again.
CW: My best friend in my early teens was a Hindu girl whose dad was a diplomat and when his contract was up, they moved and I lost touch with her. Point being, I have been exposed to the Hindu culture throughout the years, and my perception is not negative. I am unable to form negative cultural perceptions on any race or country based on the acts of a few because I totally understand we are all individuals with families and dreams, and the human need to love and receive love. The acts of the extremists are just that, the act of those isolated extremists who unfortunately do cause a lot of harm.
My prayer is that ignorance starts ending one person at a time. Its freeing. Your hub contributes to this awareness.
Thumbs up!
Thank you for this valuably informative Hub. I really appreciate the effort you have clearly put into this excellent research.
Thanks CW - you are making me blush. You have a habit of making people feel good about themselves! The internet has its downside (it can be too easy to hurt a 'faceless' person), but the good part is that people can talk without any pre-judgment.
I do pick up a lot of information in my job - coincidentaly enough, I am ghost-writing a book about Oriental Rugs, and Akbar is a large part of that history.
Going back to the title of your thoughtful Hub - you do not need to defend Indians or Hindus. The bad people should answer for themselves. BDazzler does not need to defend the more extreme US Christians, and I will not defend the Orthodox church. Last year, some Armenian and Greek Orthodox monks started to fight each other in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, Jerusalem. I am not going to waste my time defending those idiots. Not my problem - they are big enough and stupid enough to answer for themselves!
PS - A little busy at the moment, but want to hear more about your Moon landing. Will send you an e-mail in the next few days! ;)
Countrywomen is back in form!
This hub clearly portrays your annoyance and hurt feelings. Over the years, I've noticed that any turbulence (in any Country) which is trigered off due to religious intolerance is, more often than not, instigated by few people who have vested interests and selfish motives. I know this hub is primarily reflecting the persecution of Christians but speaking for Muslims, I would like to share my thoughts here. I read somewhere (and I agree with the writer) that India is the only Country in the entire world where a Muslim, standing on the Indian soil, can abuse Hindus openly and can get away with it too. This is just because India is known for it's tolerance. Can a Hindu expect this leverage in a Muslim Country? I'm sure he'll be beheaded publicly.
Coming back to the Christians, I've known this community as a peaceful group and it's really sad to know what they have been subjected to. It's not the question as to which particular religious group is involved here; the question is how long will a man afflict misery and pain to other human beings. Great hub CW.
well look who's back. and in a big way, too. i have no opinions, much as i would like to share, because i have only learned about the things you discussed above after reading. One thing i can say though, history "happened" according to the historian's perception. thanks for sharing :D
Amazing and informative hub. I will definitely reread this again. I remember you had talked about the comparative religions classes you took in school, so it is good to see you are using your education to inform others here at hubpages. Maybe you should make a series of these hubs.
Marie- Thats quite a compliment that you heaped upon me "My prayer is that ignorance starts ending one person at a time. Its freeing. Your hub contributes to this awareness". There are good, average & bad people in every race, creed or religion. I have seen people like you who have grown in NY or SweetiePie from California are so broad minded and knowledgeable about many different cultures and people. May there be more broad mindedness and tolerance in the world. Thanks for praising me.
Teresa- Most of the stuff I wrote was in a flow but I did do little research for links/photos. Thanks a lot for appreciating this hub.
Sufi- You deserve every bit of praise and even more. Btw now I am really curious and looking forward to that book. By any chance is it possible for us to get a sneak peak of the rough draft. Btw how did you come up with that name Oriental Rugs? Well sometimes we get moved to write and that was the title I came up with. Yes you are right I shouldn't get so defensive about things much much beyond my control. About the "moon" part lets say "I am over the moon now" :-)
Anjali- I am really happy to be back on hub pages sometimes it feels so good to be back home especially after a tiring trip. About the tolerance part I would say it is sometimes the expectation levels of different people are different for different scenarios i.e., maybe in certain countries that is expected but in India not expected. Yes you are right each life is equally valuable and we all are humans first and later anything else.
Cris- You are so right when some of the governments try to rewrite history than it leads to massive disillusionment among the masses. History should be accurate, objective and unbiased but then we all are humans and tend to have some leanings one way or the other.
SweetiePie- Thanks for appreciating and since you are a history scholar the mention of "reread" means a lot to me. Yes in schools we did have some understanding and the amazing part was that I felt that the best boy in our class at that time was belonging to a group called humanist (without any religion) which I didn't know well enough at that time. I will see what else I can write in similar lines.
Thanks everyone for stopping by and leaving your valuable comments.
Hi, glad to see that you are back. Hope you had a great time when you were away. :) Let's talk when you get settled.
Secular humanism would be a wonderful topic for your hub :).
Wandererh- What a coincidence I was also thinking of you and commented in the California hub. Do you have psychic or telepathic powers? Yes I did have a great time and will talk in detail soon.
SweetiePie- Thanks for the excellent suggestion and I will try to get started with my thought process about it.
Hi, CW, welcome back!
Culture and spiritual beliefs in India are much older then many of other cultures all around the world. India is one of the most important craddles of humanity. People do not know about their one history. That is the problem.
Due to the neural system of people, many of then are just afraid of anything what is different then their own beliefs. Each of us project on the other what they fells within: love or hate, tolerance or intolerance.
From my point of view, I learned so many things from the spiritual beliefs of India, and can just feel deep love, respect and gratitude. Hindu mantras helped me to change my level of conscioussness (Buddhist as well). Blessing to the India, and your people and ancestors.
BTW, recently I wrote the Hub about most beautiful spritual songs and mantras where I put video clips of all main religions mantras and songs. So, just to know, you are not alone.
Love and Light, always.
Great - over the moon is good!
Sadly, no can do with the sneak previews - it is a ghost-written book, so there will be all sorts of copyright issues. :) Will let you know a little more in the future when it goes on sale. ;)
CW - good to see you back and in such fine form :)
Now, the logician in me has to point out that your poll questions are not mutually exclusive, because if the correct answer is no 3 then no 2 is also correct ;)
Tatjana- I just visited that beautiful hub of yours. I feel peace of mind even from some wonderful Christmas chorals. Now there are many people especially women in US who are more open to Yoga and eastern philosophy. Thanks for your love/light and blessings for me.
Sufi- Isn't it funny how one word like "moon" depending on the other persons immediate personal experiences takes an altogether different tone and meaning..hehe. No problemo and I perfectly understand copy right issues as we have a huge IP law regulations even at our work place. Thanks for clarifying and again stopping by.
Paraglider- Thanks for the compliment. Actually I correlated towards/against then Yes and No hence Balanced was a third choice but now I do understand your point of view too. You always amaze me with your fantastic logical mind. Thanks a lot for leaving your valuable comment.
Countrywomen, if there are "Christians" out in the Middle East who are retaliating with their own form of persecution (which there probably are as you suggest), I would absolutely not defend them in any way. I would not. In fact, I must thank you for bringing up the other side of the equation. No matter where the persecution is coming from, it is unacceptable in any way shape or form.
Since I happen to be a Christian, I like to inform people about what happens to others outside of this country, that to which many are oblivious. No matter what nationality a person is, or what they believe, if they act with the intention of hurting and killing another human being for their faith, then I am against that.
I agree, that Christians can be no different. There are always two sides to the story. In fact, Christians have had some pretty dark moments - ahem the Crusades. Double in fact, I would actually be happy to do a Hub regarding the other side of the story in the hopes of waking up some "Christians".
I am not against Hindus, or Muslims, or Buddhists, or anyone else, unless that person is outright hurting and killing other human beings because of their faith, even if that person happens to be a Christian. If Christians are doing such things, like I said, I will not defend those actions. In fact, as Christians and human beings, it is our responsibility to act in a loving way, no matter the situation, and Jesus Christ said that this was possible. If we are not acting in love, we are acting without Christ, and on our own accord. In all actuality, we are going it alone, and doing what seems right in our own minds.
One other thing; because of persecution, or unloving acts that are done throughout the world by "Christians", the word Christian is kind of like a bad word in a lot of places. The thing is, when we are judging, condemning, arguing, and the like, we are not acting in love, and definitely not following Christ.
This is why many people see Christianity as just some cult, or something like that; because "Christians", are not being Christ-like. We are in essence, hurting ourselves, and God, without even realizing it. It's a great shame.
Anyway, your article is very well written, and yes, there are definitely two sides to the situation.
Was it I who sparked this article, or BDazzler?
Dave- No no it wasn't you. Yesterday morning I was browsing the forum posts and found lots of post for this "stereotype" thread. I was just going back towards the previous posts to understand where it was leading to and then I saw this post from Bdazzler: http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/9254?page=5#post13 which prompted me to start thinking.
Earlier(about 2 months ago) I saw a thread in which a person had expressed that the land where St.Thomas had helped to "civilize" the natives had become the land where Christians are persecuted today. I didn't jump into that thread at that time. But now I did because:
1) At that time I went to that persons hubs/comments/posts and found that person had gone too far in the leap of faith and also not easily open to see other points of view.
2) If I would have entered in that thread the discussion would have gone in circles without any end and simple would have been pointless rambling.
3) It may even become counter productive draining both our energies
4) More ever just like I feel about that person even others may not take seriously that persons opinion except for those who have taken similar leap of faith.
5) But now when a intelligent, broad minded person like Bdazzler said that then it prompted me because he is open, friendly and extremely well read person therefore his views may lead a lot of people to consider India as such hence I had to write.
I tend to be cautious in the discussions I tend to take up and those I pass up. Even with my present husband during our second meeting he said something which I didn't understand what he meant. I thought a lot and then next time when we met in between our conversation I sought the clarification. Sometimes we seek an explanation, tend to disagree or debate with only those people whose opinion/views we care about (oh yeah this is a quick tip for guys who are reading too that if a woman disagrees with you then it shows that she still maybe interested in you)...LOL
I was going through my valentine hub and I was trying to be fan of all those who posted nice comments. I saw that I was yet to be your fan and then I saw this hub and posted that comment hence you didn't spark it at all.
Yes I do agree with you that any human life is far more valuable than the particular religion that one professes. It is unfortunate when people highlight the loss of life of "believer" without mentioning others may also "believers" in their own right.
I once saw a program in TV in India about a group of 4 young jobless guys who had finished college and were just traveling in UP at that time in Ayodhya. And when they saw the others demolishing the Babri (Muslim Mosque) then even they joined in it. But now in front of cameras with their faces blurred they admit it was a mistake and they were just sucked into that moment to act the way they did and that they were really ashamed of themselves. Sometimes the very same individuals when alone act differently but when there are more in number like in India (hindus are more) then the mob psychology defies all logic in the heat of the moment.
Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
countrywomen, wow your hub has certainly got my head spinning. In Australia we have been what you might say insulated from the "religious wars?" that occur overseas. But from what you have said it is not a pretty picture.
If I were to classify myself I would put "christian" on the form. But one of the only practices I follow goes something like "Treat your fellow man as you would have them treat you"!
Thank you for the education.
Two thumbs up, CW. There is always more to the story no matter what the story is. Blanket stereotyping is a pet peeve of mine. There is no need for it and you cannot lump everyone in the same category.
Thanks for providing another excellent hub.
another good hub welcome back after nice break
Agvulpes- I hope this hub didn't give you a "head ache" ;) Mostly where ever we were in India even we didn't see much of "religious wars" (touch wood!!!). But honestly it may sound as not a "pretty" picture from an outside perspective (and the media doesn't help much in this regard) but once you actually do visit then it really isn't that unsafe or bad place to be in. In some countries one may have to go to a museum to understand the history but in India when one walks through the palaces, forts, temples then one may feel that he/she is traveling through one giant "museum". Thanks for appreciating and commenting. Btw congrats on the first Aussie win in SA :-)
RGraf- Yes there is always more to it than meets the eye. I hope more people take the time to ask those difficult questions even if we don't get all the answers easily. Thanks for the thumbs up and appreciation.
True, we debate with the people we care about, but sometimes people just debate to be right, and what does that really get you?
I agree that tension, excitement, agressiveness, among other things will escalate a situation when mob rules are present. I understand that any faith can have their own extremists.
I was just touching on the subject of persecution with my Hub, and was not trying to paint a picture where only Christians are persecuted today. I also did not write the caption to the picture that you were quoting, and was in no way trying to single out Hindus. In fact, North Korea is known to be the place where Christians, and even their own people are persecuted and mistreated the most.
Anyway, your points are valid and I'm sure you are a very kind and loving person. Glad to be your fan, and also glad that things don't have to be "extreme" here. LOL
very elaborate and well researched article
rgds G P Tripathi
www.acnowsystems.com
Dave- I did follow up in your hub and understood that it wasn't your writing but the default caption for that picture but didn't leave a comment then. Btw I don't personally like to engage in long drawn out pointless debates where arguing for argument's sake takes place. And more ever we all can disagree agreeably too and nothing "extreme" about it ;)
GP Tripathi- Thanks for appreciating this article. Btw for now I allowed this comment but in future please stop including irrelevant links in comments. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
countrywomen, Lol , no your Hub did not give me a "headache" . I find the Indian history and culture a fascinating study.
Overnight I have heard of the dreadful shootings in Pakistan, where some of our Aussie men were involved. Details here are very sketchy, but it looks like International Cricket has now changed forever!
Our Cricket Team in South Africa does seem to have regained some "form" (sorry Sixty)I'm sure your brother must have been impressed, or worried? lol
I never lose sight of the fact that is still only a "game"!
Thank for the nice research. I believe a small number (10%) of Hindus started to accept the reality that there are extremists among Hindus too. The fact of the matter is that 80% Hindus from India are living in a state of denial.
They won’t accept the fact that the other 10% have gone rotten The Muslims especially from Pakistan are also living in a similar state of denial. The primary reason: The vast majority of these people find violence in the name of religion an unthinkable act. They will not believe that one of them could do this despicable act. They rather believe in conspiracy theories. The fact is the some Hindus from India are as violent as anyone else. I can give you hundred of bloody examples. Let me use term the “minority Hindu Fundamentalist Terrorists” for that tiny minority instead of using word Hindus.
It hurts the entire society when we use labels such as Hindu, Muslim, Christen, India or Pakistan to identify the act of a tiny minority. As a Sufi I study and practice some of the spiritual philosophies of Hinduism and I find a lot of wisdom in Hinduism.
Another question comes to my mind, if Indian authorities could not protect the Hindu majority then how in the world they would protect the minority that has a very little leverage in that society. The only way a majority could suffer when the authorities are hijacked by a minority and that is not the case in India. However, in Pakistan that is the exact case. For instance, the Sufis who are highly tolerant people are also considered Muslim, are in majority in the rural areas of Punjab and Sindh. Due to their tolerance and secular views they have become a target of conservative minority sects like Wahabi. The fundamentalists are roaming these rural areas to convert Sufis to “Correct” version of Islam. There are tens of thousand of Sufis have been prosecuted in Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Saudi and Pakistan but no one has ever highlighted their prosecutions. However, I do not think it is not just West’s responsibility to highlight prosecutions. As a human it is the core responsibility of every human to protest the violation of human rights regardless of their race and religion. Peace
Well that was a long read and a good one. There be extremists from every walk of life. Those who persecute others are the ones who are persecuting themselves. Karma/Cause and Effect or Reap what you Sow says it all--whatever you do will come back to you---10 fold. I heard the story of Jesus being in India to either teach or be taught and the book is ST. Issa. Most western religons will tell you that it is not true, but if they haven't read it then they have no basis besides what someone else said as to what is true ot not. This in turn bites them in the behind every time. I just posted a hb about this very same thing. It changed or rather opened my mind as to what was played and who played what when the books were written about Jesus. It is very interesting about two peoples who are and have been at war with each other for a very long time. That hub is long too as it has video in it that will take up to about an hour, but it is only the second episode and I have the link to get the full one on the hub. It goes along with this hub and how these people are treated too. I know CW wouldn't mind me sharing and expanind the knowledge here. The hub is: http://hubpages.com/hub/Peters-Foundation-or-Pauls
No one needs to defend those who will not do as the Golden Rule in which Christ set forth as the most important rule of all time--Do Unto Others As YouWould Have Them Do To You. Then on the other side of the coin: Forgive Them For They Know Not What They Do. They may think they are doing good until 20/20 hindsight comes back to them many months or years later.........see----Karma!
very beautifully written and truly researched
Do I need to defend Indians or Hindus?
i think title is very offensive in nature
Agvulpes- Yes it is nice to see that there is some spring in the step of the awesome ausssies. I am sure the South Africans would fight back hard (don't worry Sixtyorso) ;)
Yes it is so sad that a whole country is being stigmatized due to the act of a few terrorist elements. I have a Pakistani neighbor and he is one of the nicest gentleman that I have ever met. It was certainly a sad day for cricket and hope investigation is done soon to find out who are those responsible for this. Thanks for stopping by.
Sufi- I wouldn't get into the percentages but certainly I would say that the majority of Hindus do accept that there are extremists and the Western/Indian media in general is pretty unbiased and accurate too while reporting about India. I agree with you that there are crazy people in every country and India is no exception to that. But on the whole India is a secular country and in general everybody has equal rights and responsibilities.
I just wish those right winged people stopped imposing there sense of "morality" on others wherever they are in the world. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
" It seems that somehow what my ancestors have done to her and her family has to be carried on for generations by people from my "community". I personally don't know how long we have to carry on setting right the historical wrong".
Dear Country women , these lines are the1 which i always ask myself. I do have chilhood memory where when ever my friend's come home after playing outside ( the famouse gully cricket :D), my grandmother insist me to wash the glass they use to drink water in my house. If one think about this there's a Hygeiene factor behind this. Also, Hinduism got many stuffs which is related to our daiy-to-day practical life & science aswell!
LG- One can trust you to give a unique perspective on so many things. My friend, you are always welcome to place any relevant links. I have visited that hub and it was very enlightening to know so many things I am unaware of. Yes that is a golden rule "Do unto others...". You have a lot of knowledge to share and I am glad to be at the "receiving" end :-)
ShinuJohn- Thanks for appreciating this article. I hope you weren't upset with anything I wrote. Glad you could stop by and read.
Raghu- I am sometimes limited with my imagination to come up with relevant titles. I apologize if you found it "offensive" in anyway. Thanks for commenting.
wow.. realy a nice hub.
religion has been a disgrace to humanity
guys you better watch delhi-6 movie..
and finally country women,its really a mindblowing article.
CW, I need your help, please, read my last comment on my Hub.
Ooooooooooh the political agendas of groups who feel that their religious and moral views should be the law of the land.People should be allowed to follow their own consciences and believe what they want to believe.Thumbs up hub!
i agree with you CW... well.. i have also studied in a Christian School for 9 years! AND I Loved every bit of it... I Love the fact that some of that British "atmosphere" is still there... having said that I agree with you that some "hindu idiots" must have done this... you see... i think that all these killings and fightings are mostly done by the political parties. All the protestors/hindu extremists are the political parties puppets. The Britishers adopted divide and rule and that's what some of the political parties are doing. BUT this is just 0.1% of India that is doing all this. We are a peace loving nation i believe and personally I don't care what your religion is... it is the thought that matters... intellect and your nature matters the most to me... I have friends from different religions but i have never thought of their religion for even a second! If the person is good the person is good (and vice versa) where does religion come in between...
The western people who know India would agree with me in all these points. Talking about the western media (or any media)... they just want news that attract the people living in that region... increasing their TRP's that's all!
Finally. I would like to say AND i always say that to my friends who aint Indians.
"Come to India! 2 Billion People Can't be Wrong!"
NICE ARTICLE
Cheframu- Hygiene is one thing but if somebody makes it obvious then it certainly sends a very wrong signal. Thanks for stopping by.
MirchiTamizh- Yes I would try to watch out for that movie. Thanks for appreciating this article. Well some folks who claim to be "religious" may be more at fault than the religion itself.
Tatjana- Hopefully that girl has those issues resolved. Its so nice to see you being so concerned for all of us here. We all need love and kindness that you shower on so many of us.
Diggerstory- The problem is sometimes some people feel correcting others way of life/thinking is more important than improving themselves first. That is a very good point of view which I can certainly identify with.
Zlimp- Actually lots of Americans are curious about India and especially here in West coast they are pretty open minded about India. Yes they may come to India by the time India reaches 2 billion (in another couple of decades)..LOL
Maanju- Thanks for appreciating.
Thanks everyone for stopping by and commenting.
COUNTRYWOMEN, YOU MAY BE RIGHT , VISIT HERE http://hubpages.com/hub/what-is-RSS--Rashtriya-Swa
CW - Another great hub!
I believe that insecure people will always use religion as a justification for hidden agendas. We've seen this throughout the history of mankind. Denomination, religions, etc., are creations of man to impose specific philosophies on others mainly for dominance and control - and to hide their own personal short commings. Whether we're Hindus, Cristian, Muslems, etc there will be people among these groups who unfortunately will exploit others for personal gains.
Because people call themselves Christians, or Muslems, or Catholics or whatever their religious afiliation does not make them spiritual. There is stark difference in being spiritual and being religious. The majority of people in this world are religious and therefore are subject to do stupid things in the name of that particular religion as oppose to be being spiritual which breathes tolerance and acceptance.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Countrywoman, what a wonderful hub. I am sorry that people seem to find the fundamentalist factions of many religions to be the troublemakers when I do not believe that is the case. Many fundamentalist people are just trying their best to adhere to thier belief system. It is the radical bunch of any religion that you have to look out for.
I try not to pay attention to the sort of people who paint a whole people in a bad way because of the behavior of a few. We need to sort out the real idiots and not give them the attention they crave.
I guess I don't pay much attention to certain things for I have not heard any of this before now and have always found the Hindu religion to be beautiful with wonderful stories and a loving additude.
"(in and Rome)/Middle East then they were given asylum by the Chera emperor in Kerala and today they are known as Cochin Jews(It is a good hub about them) or as "Black" Jews."
What a way to linkback to hubs. Neat!
This article is well balanced, but heavy on text. While thats not a BAD thing, some people are ADD. Maybe find some other vids or pix to sprinkle into it?
Your points come across clear and consice...but I'm biased, as I have a lot of admiration for your culture.
I even have four rats. 'cause they rule, and as I understand, many revere them in the Hindu culture.
In fact, the place where I buy cigs is run by a nice family who come from India. They are very pleased to see me bring in one of rodent kids at times.
Thanks for educating me, CW.
Sincerely,
G|M
Ahh, and to continue being a link ho...here's a vid of the rat temple in India: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACzWdSfZXmw
Stop worshipping false Gods. Jesus is the one and only true God who died for our sins. You will go to hell for worshipping idols. Accept Jesus and accept Heaven.
True Believer
Ouch. My eyes just got burned. Sigh. Oh well, at least I'm not a filthy heathen anymore. ;)
First Glance- There are conservative groups in every religion and thanks for stopping by.
JXB- It is so true that people seem to be more religious and than spiritual. It takes a lot of wisdom to come with that kind of insight.
Dolores- Thanks for having such a high opinion about Hindus. Although I am sure there are some Hindus who don't act according to the high opinion you possess.
G|M- Yes it just seems funny when people worship anything and everything in India..LOL. I hope you do get to visit India sometime in the future to realize the kind of experience it really is. All I ask people who do show interest in India is to look beyond the crowds/poverty and appreciate the history/various cultures all across the country. I never say they will have a comfortable stay like sandals resorts but I do say that it will be a memorable experience which will last a lifetime.
TrueBeliever- I respect your views and hope that one day you will also respect other views.
Thanks everyone for stopping by and commenting.
This was a wonderful article. I wish people would just cut the crap and quit hiding their murderous actions behind the facade of their religions. I find even the Muslim religion is based on love. There are always bad apples with simple minds that would pick some political or religion to justify their hateful feelings. I identify with the hindu and american indian religons as by worshiping everything, it is easier to see how everything is connected as a whole.
Hi ! In Indonesia, we are highly influenced by Hinduism. In my family there are Muslims and Hindus. I am a Muslim but one of my sister is Hindu. There is no problem with that.
You cannot put more than a few people in one place and not have a diversification of action. You cannot say any group of people act one way. Stereotyping is a way for us to simplify a complex situation. It is kind of a lazy way to understand something without getting the facts. Like any large country with a history India has good and bad episodes. We're all human.
At this time Americans are not happy that they are losing so many jobs to India. I believe most people are smart enough to blame the companies and not the people of India.
I appreciate the distinction be tween idol worship and worship through idols. I have researched this topic myself in regards to the Jewish temple in the time of the first Roman emperor Augustus and how the Jews tolerated his image in their temple by saying they were praying "for" him, not "to" him.
Thanks for taking the time to write this hub. Well thought out and very enjoyable.
Wow, very good write up. Can't add much that hasn't already been said though. Glad to see you're standing up for people :)
It is so important that the people of the world realize that we are all one universal family. Wiping each other out in wars and persecuting each other can only backfire in the end. Interesting hub.
This is a very well written and researched hub that I found of interest but was saddened to hear of the attack on the Krishna temple.
Cool article... wanna visit India one day.
Great article ....... It nothing but the truth that no religious writing promote evil, be it Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, etc.
The division and rift is created by people. On a rose plant, there more thorns than roses. It is bad people in every religion who create problem and enmity.
In India, Muslims and Christians are considered minority, but then in the World, Hindus are a minority. So minority and majority is relative. Be it minority or majority all should be treated equally.
You knocked this one out of the park dear. Tolerance is much needed more than ever. I have no respect for most missionarys. they have done way too much harm. I will not support them.
Hindu religion teaches perseverance, tolerance and peace. The incidents take place in disguise.I do not say other colours are wrong. But one will not wear other shirt at any cost. Similarly the caste or the colour whatever it is. But still we all are equal and must be loved among ourselves.
As long as if, a religion is sold to attract people, violence will burst by the other community. So selling of any community will harm the humankind.
CW Excellant hub. I could read your social responsibility.
There is only one certain thing about Indian civilisation - It will adapt and move ahead reason the broad vedic principles on which the countrys culture is established.Its an open source code and has a DNA of taking and accumulating from all other religions with great respect for one another. Inspite of hindus being in majority I have personally felt people cant easily poison hindu mind because of the sheer tenets on which it has grown. Patience and resilience are very high , tolerence finds its definition here.
great to read the above articles.
Hi! Countrywoman
I am not so sure, your attitude about linking these law and order problems because of improper criminal justice system in our country (court, police, administration etc.) to religion and culture is appropriate. (Hindu or Christian etc., name any religion it is present in India and for centuries continues to be followed by millions, is there any other country where such a diversity is there? for that matter is there any other country where even Christianity has also continued for such a long period, uninterrupted-almost 2000 years? This when they were a small minority. Even in Europe there were dark ages ). No doubt we need to improve our criminal justice system enormously. Talking about that is a different matter.
Why do you have to be apologetic. The comments and anti Indian expressions must have been written by people who are ignorant about India or who may have some undesirable motive.
They may not any way listen to you even if you try to defend unless they really have feeling to get towards truth.
Trying to defend in this manner as you did-does that not look a little weak attitude for no reason? is it not better to face truth in all aspects with strength?
What these criminal incidents have to do with our culture or attitudes. Killing of Indians for example in Australia recently - is it much different? But we do not bring in Hindu or Sikh religion in it as you see people doing it often in West and almost always in Muslim countries, when a Christian or Muslim is a victim of crime. That is Indian style. We do not even think of religion that often.
Strength of Hindu culture is so nicely mentioned in the comment of shiva tattva.
Incidentally I wrote one article very recently on our style and philosophies. I have written earlier also articles, comments touching these aspects.
I completely bow to you for such an unmatched dedication, knowledge and understanding of India,Hinduism.. u have a great sense of writing n presenting it n seems to have excelled in general human psychology too...Thanks a ton for such a wonderful hub...It oozes out emotion, patience and awesome knowledge of the language too.... hats off
SiddSingh 3 years ago
Hi CW,
Now I know why you were lying low for the last few days. My guess is this hub took some research.
You know, only today I was reading this thread in the HP forums about persecution, and someone happened to mention that the true example of persecution of Christians is as it is happening in India, among other nations. Apparently, this view is formed through the media, and is not really objective. I guess few people in the west will believe when I tell them that I was educated in a Christian school for 14 years of my life. I suspect most people have this image of hapless evengelists toiling under merciless persecution by the pagan Hindus.